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|Teup||Thursday 14th of April 2005 09:21:36 PM|
|Ch sound - I noticed this nice sounding palatal fricative consonant that's like a softer version of the Dutch 'g'. But I'm not sure when it's used, the guides aren't really clear on this. I noticed it's there in a word with 'ch', but I also heard it elsewhere. I'm also not sure if all 'ch's are like this. Can anyone explain what exactly is pronounced like this? Tnx!|
|Prosse||Friday 15th of April 2005 02:21:35 AM|
| - [quote]Originally posted by Teup
I noticed this nice sounding palatal fricative consonant that's like a softer version of the Dutch 'g'. But I'm not sure when it's used, the guides aren't really clear on this. I noticed it's there in a word with 'ch', but I also heard it elsewhere. I'm also not sure if all 'ch's are like this. Can anyone explain what exactly is pronounced like this? Tnx![/quote]
I belive you are refering to what in swedish sometimes is called the tje-sound (che). I've tried to figure out where it is used. This is what I came up with from the top of my head. Maybe there are other places as well that I didn't think of now.
"tj" in the beginning of words. Example: tjuv (thief), tjur (bull)
"ky" in the beginning of words Example: kyrka (church), kyla (cold)
it could also appear in some borrowed words like check (cheque)
I hope this helped.
|Teup||Saturday 16th of April 2005 12:38:42 AM|
| - Ah, ok, thanks.
Yeah I also heard it at a word that ended on -tion I think, a borrowed word, I thought that one too was pronounced like /Gon/ (G being phonetic char for that sound). If anyone can think of more places, please post :)
|Hoogard||Saturday 16th of April 2005 05:36:26 AM|
| - http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm
Chapter 9 here is about pronounciation. You can scroll down (or click) to the tj-sound and listen to some examples.
And of course, all other sounds. Good luck.
|Teup||Saturday 16th of April 2005 08:51:11 AM|
| - Hmm on that site there seem to be only /S/ sounds.. (sh from shoe). Maybe it depends on the dialect or something...
Besides, I also don't hear how the 'y' (in dyr) sounds like german 'ü', it rather sounds like English 'ee' in 'street'. Maybe it's just a combination between u and i that I can't hear because I'm not a native.
|Prosse||Saturday 16th of April 2005 01:08:28 PM|
| - [quote]Originally posted by Teup
Hmm on that site there seem to be only /S/ sounds.. (sh from shoe). Maybe it depends on the dialect or something...
Besides, I also don't hear how the 'y' (in dyr) sounds like german 'ü', it rather sounds like English 'ee' in 'street'. Maybe it's just a combination between u and i that I can't hear because I'm not a native.[/quote]
I found both the tj- and the sj- sounds on that site. Those two sounds are not so distant from eachother. The sj-sound is closer to the dutch g-sound (at least as I know it from afrikaans) but it is still softer. The tj-sound is an even softer version.
Regarding the y-sound: The recording was perfectly ok. It is the same sound as i german ü.
|Teup||Saturday 16th of April 2005 05:48:19 PM|
| - Hmm yes, I hear a slight difference between tj and sj now... the sj is a bit further back, more in the Dutch g direction, but not as much as I heard on the Swedish radio... there they really used the 'ch' from german 'ich'.
I thought the 'u' in 'nu' is pronounced like german ü (dutch u). 'ny' to me sounds like 'ni', not like ü. Probably your 'u' is a bit more towards your 'o' in 'stol' than the german/dutch version, and the 'y' moving slightly in the opposite direction, towards the 'i' in 'kniv'. Swedish just seems to pick different spots in this continuum... I can't pronounce them but I can recognize them now a bit I think, so I guess I'll just keep listening and hope it comes with time :)
|Hoogard||Saturday 16th of April 2005 08:01:05 PM|
| - All give you my wiev of the swedish wovels.
Fast: as i in bike but without the y/j-ending sound. (if that makes any sense)
Slow: as a in barn
Fast: as e in bed
Slow: as ea in fear
Sometimes also pronounced as the letter Ä.
Fast: as i in bit
Slow: as ee in street (as you noticed)
Fast: as oo in foot
Slow: as oo in drool.
Sometimes pronounced as the letter Å.
I don't think english has this sound hehe.
Swedish slow examples:
sju, tjuv, kruka etc.
Swedish fast examples:
Fast: I can't give any good english example of this sound. It sounds pretty much like fast I but not exactly. Examples; Krycka, brygga
Slow: as the german ü
Fast: as o in got
Slow: as o in bored
Fast: No good egnlish examples. Very similar to the fast E. Examples; snäcka, mätt
Slow: as a in bad
Fast: No good english example. Examples; rött, böcker
Slow: as u in murder
|Teup||Saturday 16th of April 2005 08:44:48 PM|
| - thx for the overview Hoogard. It seems like you have an extra vowel in between somewhere that we don't have in Dutch. In Dutch we have:
i - like your i
oe - like your o (in stol)
u - like your y
the word "you" pretty much covers the whole spectrum where those vowels are in, from that spectrum we have 3 vowels, and you guys have 4. I think your 'u' is somewhere in between your 'o' and 'y', if I understand it correctly.
|Jadokesa||Saturday 16th of April 2005 11:07:23 PM|
| - Do you know X-Sampa? I'm making a guess that you either know that or IPA. If so, then i could give you the descriptions of all sounds in standard Swedish. I'm not good at pointing out the stress and long/short vowels though...
[quote]Originally posted by Teup
Yeah I also heard it at a word that ended on -tion I think, a borrowed word, I thought that one too was pronounced like /Gon/ (G being phonetic char for that sound). If anyone can think of more places, please post :)[/quote]
-ti(on), -si(on) and -ssi(on) are /x\un/ in X-Sampa. In my dialect, we only have one variant of the sound sj, /s`/ (/s`un/).
Standard Swedish <tj> and <kj> are always /s\/.
Before e,i,y,ä,ö (the soft vowels), <k> is also pronounced /s\/.
I'm not sure about <ch>, as the books I've read don't agree on the correct transcription. Either /s\/ or /x\/.
|Salleman||Sunday 17th of April 2005 05:24:11 AM|
| - Teup:
I strikes me that although both the German letter ü as in Müsli and the french u as in Bureau (swe. byrå) becomes y in Swedish, the pronounciation of these sounds in my ear lies closer to the Swedish u than to y. Compare these sound-files (the first two are in ogg-format):
(The German city of München/Munich)
(The Swedish city of Umeå)
(The number fyra)
|Hoogard||Sunday 17th of April 2005 08:21:29 AM|
| - Salleman. I don't agree with you at all. The ü is as far as i know identical to y in my accent than it is to u.
Btw. I tried to find a difference between a fast E and a fast Ä sound. I couldn't come up with any so you might want to consider them the same sound.
|Salleman||Sunday 17th of April 2005 11:26:58 AM|
| - I agree that ü lies somewhere between y and u, but I find it easier to approach the ü in e.g. the München-file above from u than from y.
(could someone please help me by telling if I should have "from u then from y" instead of "than" above.)
In my dialect, which is pretty close to rikssvenska, the phoneme (sound) used for the long u (as in "ute") is also a different one than in the short u (as un "utter" = otter). The latter i closer to ö. From what I hear of Norwegian or Värmländska, they seem to use the "long" phoneme also for the short u.
Moreover (yes, I'm pushy person, especially with phonetics :D ) there are two long ö's in rikssvenska. One in "örn" and one in "öken". I can't think of any örn-ö's that I would use except followed by an r, but I know that some dialects use this ö much more frequently, e.g. in "öl" and "ödla".
|Ulven||Sunday 17th of April 2005 12:36:58 PM|
| - In regard to the tje/G/ch or whatever you call that sound; I think it is only distinct and strongly different in Old Swedish. I listen to a singer named Emma Härdelin from a musical Group called garmarna pronounce it, and she has a strong 'hw' sound in the the letter combinations in question on Salleman's "51 ways to spell tje". eg. människor (people/humans)- mAn-i-hwer. But I can't for the life of me find any Swede who knows which sound I'm talking about. Perhaps the sound you're looking for, Teup, is the same sound I'm confused about also. If so, I believe it must be outdated, and only used by traditional storytellers who've studied Old Swedish, or as occasional usage in pronunciation left-overs from a bygone era. I've found no tapes nor websites that provide the sound that I once thought was commonplace Swedish. One thing that supports the idea of this pronunciation by this singer being ancient, is the fact that she uses outdated verb-conjugation too, like 'haver' instead of 'har' (have).
The only word that I hear some people in films clearly using this sound regularly in, is 'sjuk'(sick). And 'sju' (seven), sometimes. Though sju is usually pronounced like the English word 'shoe', I think. So, I've had trouble knowing who uses it, if any do at all. I suspect it's an old sound rarely used in the modern day.
LEARNING TIP: Never let ancient traditional music be your guide to modern day languages:). It's caused me some confusion. I'm still learning about this elusive sound.:)lol.
EDIT: I finally got that website Hoogard gave here to let me hear it. (it kept trying to make me put a disk in a disk-drive, for some reason :S). I found the sound, albeit watered down. Under the 'sj' pronunciation section, the 2nd optional pronunciations for shampoo and sherry have it. Though the first time they say it like the sh/ch, the second sound is like 'hw'. hwampo and hweri. The word chock has the 'h' without the 'w' sound - hock. Does this pronunciation get used much? (Or maybe Swedes simply don't relate to my transliteration:)lol of this sound). Anyway, it's the second sound version of the words chock, shampoo and sherry that I'd like to know about. Is this pronunciation used much?
|Salleman||Sunday 17th of April 2005 01:22:21 PM|
| - There you go: Swedish Phonology on Wikipedia. This is the Law:
The Talk-page ("discussion"-tab) has an eight page downs exposition about variants of the sje-sound. Hehehe...
|Teup||Sunday 17th of April 2005 05:15:43 PM|
| - Salleman, I agree very much on the y/u thing - I noticed the same. The word 'du' sounds like how we would pronounce it in Dutch (Dutch u, German ü), the word 'fyra' sounds to me like 'fira' with the i sound we use in Dutch. However, as I said, I think the solotion is this: the Swedish i sounds much more extreme (some speakers really freak me out with it, it's way beyond my own device :)), alot wider and more palatized than in any language I know (compare 'bliv' to English 'be'). The 'u' is a little bit more towards the English oo than German ü is (allthough to me personally it is still within the tolerance limits of being an u sound, it's an allophone of u). That way there's a new place open for the y, that is somewhere in between the two, and to me it sounds like an i, after rounding the 4 Swedish vowels down to my 3 Dutch ones. So, everyone interprets them differently depending on the native language/dialect.
Ulven, I guess I refer to the hw sound and I see what you mean... That's a pity, I'd love to use it :) Your notation got me thinking, there's indeed a slight 'w' after it at times, but not always.
Jadokesa, cool you know SAMPA/IPA. I see now, the tj appears to always be a plain 'sh' sound, so only this sj sound is still tricky. Is it really a /x\/? I'm not sure what the backslash means though, but /x/ is really rough, you have it in Dutch and Icelandic but I've not heard it Swedish so far. I'd say the sj is /ē/ (so, palatal instead of gutteral) but only sometimes.. maybe depending on the speaker.
|Jadokesa||Sunday 17th of April 2005 05:48:08 PM|
| - /x\/ is mostly called a voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative. It is a sound unique to Swedish. I've heard that there's at least 3 different variants of the sj-sound - /x\/, /S/ and /s`/. I think that most Swedes would understand you regardless of what variant you use.|
|Hoogard||Sunday 17th of April 2005 06:00:18 PM|
| - [quote]Originally posted by Salleman
there are two long ö's in rikssvenska. One in "örn" and one in "öken".[/quote]
Do you have an basis for this claim or is it jus your own personal opinion. Cause myself i use the exact same Ö in these two words but i reckon there can be major diffirences here throughout the country. :)
PS. than is the correct word to use.
|Teup||Sunday 17th of April 2005 07:16:27 PM|
| - [quote]Originally posted by Jadokesa
/x\/ is mostly called a voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative. It is a sound unique to Swedish. I've heard that there's at least 3 different variants of the sj-sound - /x\/, /S/ and /s`/. I think that most Swedes would understand you regardless of what variant you use.[/quote]
Ah ok I got ya. So I just have to pick something in between the retroflex area and the velar, voiceless. Ok... then I'll make it a slightly less agressive and voiceless /x/ :) I could go for the easy option and use /S/ for everything, but I don't want to spoil your language ;)
|Salleman||Tuesday 19th of April 2005 10:50:28 AM|
| - Once more I recomend [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology[/url], as it explains Everything.
On the phonetics of the sje-sound:
"/ ɧ / and [ ɧ ] are often used by Swedish linguists to designate the Swedish / ʃ /-sound, in Swedish known as the "sje"/-sound. The phonetic symbol [ ɧ ] can be used to cover the whole range of labialized realizations [ ʃʷ ~ xʷ ~ χʷ, fʷ ], to contrast against [ ʂ ] in Sweden and [ ɕ ] in Finland-Swedish. Although academic works appear to be inconclusive, it seems highly likely that the most prestigeous realization of this phoneme in the capital region of Stockholm is changing from [ ʂ ~ ʃʷ ] towards the more contrasting [ xʷ ]. In northern Sweden [ ʂ ] dominates. Similarly, the precise nature of the different articulations of this sound in South Swedish Standard and dialects seems scantily researched."
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Sv-n%C3%B6t.ogg [/url]("nöt" [nųːt])
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Sv-%C3%B6ra.ogg [/url]("öra" [̟ːra])
This is also how I pronounce them. Do you use the first or the second in öken?
Btw. I would explain the first ö-sound as the German ö in Österreich, the second as the English u in burn.
|Hoogard||Wednesday 20th of April 2005 04:50:07 AM|
| - i can't get my media player to accept those codecs.|
|Salleman||Thursday 21st of April 2005 09:12:40 AM|
| - Install this for Media Player and similar:
And/Or install this for WinAmp:
|Hoogard||Thursday 21st of April 2005 07:52:45 PM|
| - i said i couldn't get them to work. not that i couldn't find them...|
|Ulven||Sunday 24th of April 2005 12:26:44 AM|
| - [quote]Originally posted by Teup
Ulven, I guess I refer to the hw sound and I see what you mean... That's a pity, I'd love to use it :) Your notation got me thinking, there's indeed a slight 'w' after it at times, but not always.[/quote]Yes, I intend on using this sound, even if I sound like a total dork using old peoples' pronunciation. It's too unique and distinctive to waste. Saying 'sh' for everything is boring. I want to feel exotic when speaking non-English. But, now it's a matter of going through all these files from Hoogard, Salleman, Jadokesa, and any other sources I find, so I can not use this sound in the wrong places where they don't belong.
|Teup||Sunday 24th of April 2005 01:25:06 AM|
| - I agree. I think it won't be too hard to figure it all out - if you do it subconsciously. My plan is to just learn to improve my reading skills some more, then my listening skills, so i can listen to swedish radio like I can listen to English. Then you'll get an idea of different accents you can choose between when you actually start speaking it, and then the exact places you put a hw will be just fine, without you actively thinking about it.|
|Hoogard||Sunday 24th of April 2005 04:53:07 AM|
| - sounds like a plan :)|
|Teup||Sunday 24th of April 2005 05:48:57 AM|
| - yeah, language is a natural thing, you shouldn't think about it all too much, only gives you a headache :D
Sigh.. whyever did I go study linguistics... :D
|Hoogard||Wednesday 27th of April 2005 05:38:27 AM|
| - [quote]Originally posted by Teup
yeah, language is a natural thing, you shouldn't think about it all too much, only gives you a headache :D
Sigh.. whyever did I go study linguistics... :D[/quote]
Just so that you could realize that very thing and teach it to us :)
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