Dutch Continuning The Question Of Dutch Genitives

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detbarn Sunday 26th of February 2006 04:32:11 PM
continuning the question of Dutch genitives - [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i]

[quote][i]Originally posted by detbarn[/i]

I heard it's possible to say "my father's house" as "Mijn vader's huis", but for some reason "de man's huis" is incorrect?[/quote]

Good question, well noticed. note that it should be like this though:

"mijn vader[b]s[/b] huis"

The -s is a suffix, a suffix modifies the word it attaches to, but in this case it is quite extraordinary that it can apply to the whole phrase "mijn vader" without turning it into something like "mijns vaders" (which probably would have been the case when this suffixing was alot more active in Dutch, in the past centuries).

Phrases ("mijn vader", "de glazen tafel", "het paard van Sinterklaas", "de man die gisteren zijn hoed was verloren op de dam") preferrably get the preposition construction. So here too, "het huis van mijn vader" is most common (although "mijn vaders huis" doesn't sound less good than it, they sound equally good to me).
The next best thing would be this sort of construction, although that is mainly speaking language:

"Mijn vader z'n huis" - "My dad his house"
"Mijn moeder d'r huis" - "My mom her house"
"De man die op straat liep z'n hoed" - "The man who walked the street his hat"

And as a third option, ultimately, for "mijn vader" it seems to be possible to suffice with "mijn vaders huis". But here we're in a real grey area. There aren't much phrases which allow that, I think it's also very dependent on the speaker, I'm sure there will be natives with other preferences than me somewhere.
The reason why it's possible with "my father", I think, is because that phrase as a whole is a lexicalized concept - it's a common, stereotype phrase. When I turn it into something unpredictable, like "my tree", and say:

??"Mijn booms bladeren" - "My tree's leafs"

It sounds really awkward to me, I think most natives will agree, but I can never be 100% sure. In fact, "mijn booms" immediately reminded my of "mijn ooms", "my uncle's" - so that sort of supports that it's only good with those very stereotype, as a whole lexicalized phrases.[/quote]

Is it possible to say "my friend's brother's house" as "mijns vriends broers huis"?

Mathieu Sunday 26th of February 2006 06:52:09 PM
- Hmm no it's not, although that system you use there does exist, in a fixed expression like this:

Mijns inziens = 'of my view' ('the way I see it')

(so you have 'mijn inzien', 'my view', and then you suffigate a genitive '-s' on both 'mijn' and 'inzien')

But that's not actively used in Dutch, even "Mijns vriends huis" or rather "Het huis mijns vriends" (which would be analogue to German "Das Haus meines Freunds") does not exist in Dutch.
These are preferred, in order of preference:
Het huis van mijn vriend
Mijn vriend z'n huis
Mijn vriends huis (this one is barely possible - perhaps this is an Anglicism, since if it truly were a suffix, it would have attached to 'mijn' as well, this looks more like the English clitic "'s")

And for the complex one:

Het huis van de broer van mijn vriend
Het huis van mijn vriend z'n broer
De broer van mijn vriend z'n huis
(though the "z'n" has a slightly more intimate relation than the "van" so you quickly get the reading of "the brother of [my friend's house]" :p)

And I've never heard people say things like "Mijn vriend z'n broer z'n huis", it sounds weird, but I'm sure it has been phrased like that by natives on occasions :)

This has little to do with logic and everything with how people just happen to prefer to phrase it.. things that sound ungrammatical now could just be the matter of course a few decades from now :)

Phrasebase Archive
	detbarn	Sunday 26th of February 2006 04:32:11 PM
	continuning the question of Dutch genitives - [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i] [quote][i]Originally posted by detbarn[/i] I heard it's possible to say "my father's house" as "Mijn vader's huis", but for some reason "de man's huis" is incorrect?[/quote] Good question, well noticed. note that it should be like this though: "mijn vader[b]s[/b] huis" The -s is a suffix, a suffix modifies the word it attaches to, but in this case it is quite extraordinary that it can apply to the whole phrase "mijn vader" without turning it into something like "mijns vaders" (which probably would have been the case when this suffixing was alot more active in Dutch, in the past centuries). Phrases ("mijn vader", "de glazen tafel", "het paard van Sinterklaas", "de man die gisteren zijn hoed was verloren op de dam") preferrably get the preposition construction. So here too, "het huis van mijn vader" is most common (although "mijn vaders huis" doesn't sound less good than it, they sound equally good to me). The next best thing would be this sort of construction, although that is mainly speaking language: "Mijn vader z'n huis" - "My dad his house" "Mijn moeder d'r huis" - "My mom her house" "De man die op straat liep z'n hoed" - "The man who walked the street his hat" And as a third option, ultimately, for "mijn vader" it seems to be possible to suffice with "mijn vaders huis". But here we're in a real grey area. There aren't much phrases which allow that, I think it's also very dependent on the speaker, I'm sure there will be natives with other preferences than me somewhere. The reason why it's possible with "my father", I think, is because that phrase as a whole is a lexicalized concept - it's a common, stereotype phrase. When I turn it into something unpredictable, like "my tree", and say: ??"Mijn booms bladeren" - "My tree's leafs" It sounds really awkward to me, I think most natives will agree, but I can never be 100% sure. In fact, "mijn booms" immediately reminded my of "mijn ooms", "my uncle's" - so that sort of supports that it's only good with those very stereotype, as a whole lexicalized phrases.[/quote] Is it possible to say "my friend's brother's house" as "mijns vriends broers huis"?
	Mathieu	Sunday 26th of February 2006 06:52:09 PM
	- Hmm no it's not, although that system you use there does exist, in a fixed expression like this: Mijns inziens = 'of my view' ('the way I see it') (so you have 'mijn inzien', 'my view', and then you suffigate a genitive '-s' on both 'mijn' and 'inzien') But that's not actively used in Dutch, even "Mijns vriends huis" or rather "Het huis mijns vriends" (which would be analogue to German "Das Haus meines Freunds") does not exist in Dutch. These are preferred, in order of preference: Het huis van mijn vriend Mijn vriend z'n huis Mijn vriends huis (this one is barely possible - perhaps this is an Anglicism, since if it truly were a suffix, it would have attached to 'mijn' as well, this looks more like the English clitic "'s") And for the complex one: Het huis van de broer van mijn vriend Het huis van mijn vriend z'n broer De broer van mijn vriend z'n huis (though the "z'n" has a slightly more intimate relation than the "van" so you quickly get the reading of "the brother of [my friend's house]" :p) And I've never heard people say things like "Mijn vriend z'n broer z'n huis", it sounds weird, but I'm sure it has been phrased like that by natives on occasions :) This has little to do with logic and everything with how people just happen to prefer to phrase it.. things that sound ungrammatical now could just be the matter of course a few decades from now :)