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Mathieu Friday 22nd of April 2005 01:01:31 AM
De / Het words - As a student of Dutch, one of your biggest worries, if not the biggest, is telling whether a noun is masculine/feminine or neuter. It's the de/het problem.

Now, all your teachers have told you it's just something you have to learn by heart, and there are no logical rules to it. Some will have called it marked, or idiosyncratic, which are more intelligent ways to say you just don't get it.

I can, however, let you in on some small secrets that'll help you determining if a word is de or het. Namely, for as far as I know, [b]homogeneous[/b] concepts are almost always [b]het-words[/b]. What is homogeneous? Homogeneous things are concepts that don't come in fixed portions, like earth, water, and fire. When referring to the phenomenon fire in general, you can't say "a fire" but you can say "some more fire" or "fire is hot". Same goes for 'money' for example. There's not "a money", it's a homogeneous concept, and homogeneous don't have "a". You can say "money is good" and "some more money" (homogeneous) whereas you can't say "chair is good" or "some more chair" (non-homogeneous). Do you get the homogeneous idea?

Now fire was a nice example. You might know there are two words for it in Dutch: 'vuur' is the phenomenon fire ('vuur is heet', 'fire is hot'), 'brand' is a clear-cut instance of it, like a forest fire. Vuur is homogeneous, brand isn't. Therefore, 'vuur' is a het-word whereas brand is a de-word. Flame is also a clear-cut, fixed obstacle, therefore flame, 'vlam', is also not neccesairily a 'het' word (it is in fact a de-word).
'Aarde' means earth. When referring to the planet, or the ground (non-homogeneous), it's a 'de' word. When referring to the material earth in general, it is 'het aarde' (although many people also say 'de' for this application, we ourselves have trouble with it :D ).
If a concept is not homogeneous, like a house, it doesn't garatuee you that it is a de-word however, house is still a het-word. I have no idea why. But IF it is homogeneous, you can be pretty sure it is a het-word. Some more examples:

the gas - het gas ("some more gas" -> homogeneous)
the grass - het gras ("some more grass" -> homogeneous)
the sand - het zand ("some more sand...)
the cutlery - het bestek (...)
the light - het licht
the meat - het vlees
the wood - het hout
the iron - het ijzer
the gold - het goud
the rope - het touw

I know there are some exceptions, like time. 'tijd', I suspect is a homogeneous concept, but still it is a de-word. Vegetables is 'groente', it looks to me pretty homogeneous but still it is de. I don't know why. If anyone has any idea, post it (for ex. what the diff is between meat and vegetables concerning homogeneity)! Also bare plurals are homogeneous (some more marbles), but plurals are always de. Strange, but easy to remember. Diminutives are always 'het'.

Remember that Dutch is a right-headed language, meaning the final morpheme, the final word, word in a compound determines what it is, and also what gender it has. 'Regenwater' (rain water) is a type of water, and it bares the gender of water, namely neuter (het), as it is a homogeneous word.

[b]Summarizing:
Final morphene is homogeneous -> Go for Het, almost certain success
Final morphene is plural -> De
Final morphene is diminutive -> Het
Final morphene is other -> Go for De, biggest chance[/b]

If I made any flaws or if there are other comments/questions, post ahead :)

Daan Saturday 23rd of April 2005 01:07:05 AM
- [quote]
'Aarde' means earth. When referring to the planet, or the ground (non-homogeneous), it's a 'de' word. When referring to the material earth in general, it is 'het aarde' (although many people also say 'de' for this application, we ourselves have trouble with it :D ).
[/quote]
The whole post appears to be a great help to Dutch-learners to me, but it's really "de aarde" even when refering to the material earth itself (the ground). Check the Van Dale ;)

There is also some stuff about whether words are masculine or feminine in my Dutch book, if I remember correctly. I'll go see if I can dig it up :p

Mathieu Saturday 23rd of April 2005 04:36:35 AM
- Yeah, I was really in doubt about the aarde thing. Maybe I just forced the facts a bit.. I did however find at least one genuine "het aarde" on google. It also doesn't too strange, things like "het aarde losspitten" "het aarde uit die zak" or even "het potgrond" is being said (for the students: 'grond' is ground, it's a de-word usually, but when referring to the material, dirt, it's sometimes said with a 'het').

Maybe the whole gender thing is utterly vague and irrational, I know there are flaws in this little hypothesis I made up, so it is up to you guys whether you go by it or not :) But as most foreigners just always guess "de" for everything, this might just make it a little bit more precise :)

Daan Saturday 23rd of April 2005 04:58:58 PM
- As promised, I checked my Dutch textbook and I found an interesting paragraph about it. I've attempted to translate it to English - please forgive me the mistakes :)

[quote]
Nouns can be divided into two groups: de-words and het-words. De-words are either masculine or feminine; all het-words are neuter.

[i]Neuter nouns (het-words)[/i]
the personal pronoun is "het"
e.g. "Het schilderij is vies geworden en daarom maak ik [b]het[/b] schoon."
The painting became dirty, so I am cleaning [b]it[/b].

the possesive pronoun "zijn"
e.g. "Tijdens de storm heeft het huis [b]zijn[/b] dak verloren."
During the storm the house lost [b]its[/b] roof.

the demonstrative pronoun "dit" (nearby ) or "dat" (far away)
e.g. "[b]Dit[/b] boek is spannend, [b]dat[/b] boek niet."
This book is thrilling; that book isn't.

the relative pronoun "dat"
e.g. "Het paard [b]dat[/b] daar loopt heet Henk."
The horse [b]that[/b] walks there is called Henk.

All names of countries, cities, clubs and diminutives are always het-words.

[i]Masculine and feminine words (de-words) [/i]
When refering to a de-word, use:
the demonstrative pronoun "deze" (nearby) or "die" (far away)
the relative pronoun "die"

There is, however, a difference based on gender when using personal and possesive pronouns, although most native speakers don't even make that distinction. If anybody wants me to translate the rules my book gives for determining whether a word is masculine or feminine please post/PM me.

[i]Plural nouns[/i]
Plural nouns are always "de-words".
You have to use the personal pronouns as follows:
ze/zij (subject)
hen (object/after a preposition)
hun (indirect object)
The possesive pronoun is "hun", the demonstrative pronouns are "deze" and "die" and the relative pronoun is "die".

Groups consisting of more than one individual are not plural!
"de politie arresteert de man" (correct)
The police arrests the man
"de politie arresteren de man" (INCORRECT)
The police arrests the man

In English both singular and plural verbs can be used when such a group is the subject of a sentence. In Dutch only singular forms can be used!
[/quote]

Mathieu Saturday 23rd of April 2005 06:16:21 PM
- Oh, and don't only think of groups as the police or the government or that sort of stuff, also things like "a number of people", "een aantal mensen", is a singular noun phrase. Therefore, saying "a number of people [b]are[/b]" is wrong, and this noun phrase is also 'het' ("het aantal mensen") whereas it would've been 'de' if it were plural (remember all plurals are de).

Gijs Saturday 23rd of April 2005 08:06:24 PM
Adjectives - Another advantage knowing if it's a [b]de[/b] or [b]het[/b] word is that you know when to add the [b]-e[/b] to [color=red]*[/color]adverbs.
[i][color=red]*[/color]Should be[/i] [color=red]adjectives[/color] [i]Dankje Teup[/i];)

You always use an "e" on the end of adjectives except when the noun is a "het" word and you are referring to it with an indefinite article.

Bij voorbeeld:
het nederlands[b]e[/b] boek (singular, definite article)
een nederlands boek (singuler, indefinite article)
de nederlands[b]e[/b] boeken* (plural)

*Remember that all plurals have a "de" article.

de groene auto (singular, definite article)
een groene auto (singular, indefinite article)
de groene autos (plural)

This valuable information was originally posted by [color=green]Deanara[/color].

Mathieu Saturday 23rd of April 2005 08:51:06 PM
- So, with a definite article (de or het) you always get -e after the adjectives (language-used said adverbs, he means adjectives):
Het groene boek
De groene auto
And when it's indefinite, you may or may not get an -e. What I will add to this, is that this also goes when the article is completely absent:

So,

Het volgende jaar (the next year)
De volgende week (the next week)

yields you:

volgend jaar (next year)
volgende week (next week)

Ok. Now there's something overruling this whole "nothing or -e" system. And that is genitive constructions. When you speak of a "metal bar", then "the bar is [b]of[/b] metal" (genitive, possessive). You might be tempted to say:

De metale staaf (the metal bar)

But this is wrong. Those possessive adjectives always get -en. English also has some traces of this, look for example at "the wood[b]en[/b] table". So:

De metal[b]en[/b] staaf (the metal bar)
Het papier[b]en[/b] blad (the paper side)

Etc. So, if you can rephrase it into a "a bar of metal" construction, you know the adjective gets -en. Lets go back to the "groen" example. Obviously, one can't say "a book of green". Therefore, this -en rule doesn't apply to groen. If this is all a little bit confusing, try to remember that materials are always -en. That's how I learned it in elementary school, only recently I found out -en is in fact a genitive suffix.

Daan Thursday 05th of May 2005 08:44:25 PM
- Isn't the rule for the suffix changing into -en different?
I have always been taught in school that the suffix changed into -en when dealing with an adjective that describes the material of which the noun consists.

Mathieu Thursday 05th of May 2005 10:42:16 PM
- Yeah, it applies to all materials, because you can say:

"table of wood/metal/plastic/paper", similar to "book of Peter".
Both possessive constructions can be turned around, with the possessor (Peter and the materials) in front of the possesion (table and book), though Peter gets an '-s' version (allomorf), whereas the materials get an '-en', similar to our plurals in which some get '-en' and some get '-s':
"houten/metalen/plastic/papieren tafel"
"Peters boek"

Plastic is, as you can see, an exeption, it has been borrowed recently and is therefore unaffected by that sort of morphological stuff, appearantly.

I don't know if there are any other things than materials and 'owners' which can be put into the "table of ... " shape, if they can, I'm sure they'll get an '-en' suffix as well if they're placed in front of it. As I said it doesn't work with ordinary adjectives like 'green', as you can't say 'A table of green'. (So that's why it is "groen[b]e[/b] boek" and not "groen[b]en[/b] boek").

Kaneel Wednesday 25th of May 2005 07:41:59 PM
I need the list of the 700 "het-woorden" - Hi all,

I was told by my dutch teacher that there is a list of about 700 words needing "het". Is that true? Do you know where I could find this list (online if possible)?
Thanks :o)

Mathieu Thursday 26th of May 2005 05:17:05 AM
- 700? That number doesn't mean anything to me.. can be.. If you rule out compounds at least, otherwise the number is infinite. Because the last word always determines the gender (so you can build an infinite number of de and het words). I've never heard of such a list, but I also never learned Dutch as a second language of course. Can't you just learn the gender per word, instead of the words per gender?

tmoon Friday 27th of May 2005 10:33:04 PM
- I'd like to point out about suffixes on nouns...

...I'm referring to suffixes such as -ing etc. which only appear on 'de' words, and suffixes such as -schap etc. which only appear on 'het' words.

Also, if a verb is turned into a noun, it always becomes 'het'...

the laughing - het lachen
the playing - het spelen
the making - het maken
...etc.

nostromo Friday 29th of July 2005 10:54:02 PM
- These are bad translations, there is no 'the' necessary:
Het spelen = playing
Het lachen = laughing
etc...

iandominicp77 Saturday 01st of October 2005 07:04:06 PM
hi - Erg interessant thread TEUP. I'll check it from time to time...

Phrasebase Archive
	Mathieu	Friday 22nd of April 2005 01:01:31 AM
	De / Het words - As a student of Dutch, one of your biggest worries, if not the biggest, is telling whether a noun is masculine/feminine or neuter. It's the de/het problem. Now, all your teachers have told you it's just something you have to learn by heart, and there are no logical rules to it. Some will have called it marked, or idiosyncratic, which are more intelligent ways to say you just don't get it. I can, however, let you in on some small secrets that'll help you determining if a word is de or het. Namely, for as far as I know, [b]homogeneous[/b] concepts are almost always [b]het-words[/b]. What is homogeneous? Homogeneous things are concepts that don't come in fixed portions, like earth, water, and fire. When referring to the phenomenon fire in general, you can't say "a fire" but you can say "some more fire" or "fire is hot". Same goes for 'money' for example. There's not "a money", it's a homogeneous concept, and homogeneous don't have "a". You can say "money is good" and "some more money" (homogeneous) whereas you can't say "chair is good" or "some more chair" (non-homogeneous). Do you get the homogeneous idea? Now fire was a nice example. You might know there are two words for it in Dutch: 'vuur' is the phenomenon fire ('vuur is heet', 'fire is hot'), 'brand' is a clear-cut instance of it, like a forest fire. Vuur is homogeneous, brand isn't. Therefore, 'vuur' is a het-word whereas brand is a de-word. Flame is also a clear-cut, fixed obstacle, therefore flame, 'vlam', is also not neccesairily a 'het' word (it is in fact a de-word). 'Aarde' means earth. When referring to the planet, or the ground (non-homogeneous), it's a 'de' word. When referring to the material earth in general, it is 'het aarde' (although many people also say 'de' for this application, we ourselves have trouble with it :D ). If a concept is not homogeneous, like a house, it doesn't garatuee you that it is a de-word however, house is still a het-word. I have no idea why. But IF it is homogeneous, you can be pretty sure it is a het-word. Some more examples: the gas - het gas ("some more gas" -> homogeneous) the grass - het gras ("some more grass" -> homogeneous) the sand - het zand ("some more sand...) the cutlery - het bestek (...) the light - het licht the meat - het vlees the wood - het hout the iron - het ijzer the gold - het goud the rope - het touw I know there are some exceptions, like time. 'tijd', I suspect is a homogeneous concept, but still it is a de-word. Vegetables is 'groente', it looks to me pretty homogeneous but still it is de. I don't know why. If anyone has any idea, post it (for ex. what the diff is between meat and vegetables concerning homogeneity)! Also bare plurals are homogeneous (some more marbles), but plurals are always de. Strange, but easy to remember. Diminutives are always 'het'. Remember that Dutch is a right-headed language, meaning the final morpheme, the final word, word in a compound determines what it is, and also what gender it has. 'Regenwater' (rain water) is a type of water, and it bares the gender of water, namely neuter (het), as it is a homogeneous word. [b]Summarizing: Final morphene is homogeneous -> Go for Het, almost certain success Final morphene is plural -> De Final morphene is diminutive -> Het Final morphene is other -> Go for De, biggest chance[/b] If I made any flaws or if there are other comments/questions, post ahead :)
	Daan	Saturday 23rd of April 2005 01:07:05 AM
	- [quote] 'Aarde' means earth. When referring to the planet, or the ground (non-homogeneous), it's a 'de' word. When referring to the material earth in general, it is 'het aarde' (although many people also say 'de' for this application, we ourselves have trouble with it :D ). [/quote] The whole post appears to be a great help to Dutch-learners to me, but it's really "de aarde" even when refering to the material earth itself (the ground). Check the Van Dale ;) There is also some stuff about whether words are masculine or feminine in my Dutch book, if I remember correctly. I'll go see if I can dig it up :p
	Mathieu	Saturday 23rd of April 2005 04:36:35 AM
	- Yeah, I was really in doubt about the aarde thing. Maybe I just forced the facts a bit.. I did however find at least one genuine "het aarde" on google. It also doesn't too strange, things like "het aarde losspitten" "het aarde uit die zak" or even "het potgrond" is being said (for the students: 'grond' is ground, it's a de-word usually, but when referring to the material, dirt, it's sometimes said with a 'het'). Maybe the whole gender thing is utterly vague and irrational, I know there are flaws in this little hypothesis I made up, so it is up to you guys whether you go by it or not :) But as most foreigners just always guess "de" for everything, this might just make it a little bit more precise :)
	Daan	Saturday 23rd of April 2005 04:58:58 PM
	- As promised, I checked my Dutch textbook and I found an interesting paragraph about it. I've attempted to translate it to English - please forgive me the mistakes :) [quote] Nouns can be divided into two groups: de-words and het-words. De-words are either masculine or feminine; all het-words are neuter. [i]Neuter nouns (het-words)[/i] the personal pronoun is "het" e.g. "Het schilderij is vies geworden en daarom maak ik [b]het[/b] schoon." The painting became dirty, so I am cleaning [b]it[/b]. the possesive pronoun "zijn" e.g. "Tijdens de storm heeft het huis [b]zijn[/b] dak verloren." During the storm the house lost [b]its[/b] roof. the demonstrative pronoun "dit" (nearby ) or "dat" (far away) e.g. "[b]Dit[/b] boek is spannend, [b]dat[/b] boek niet." This book is thrilling; that book isn't. the relative pronoun "dat" e.g. "Het paard [b]dat[/b] daar loopt heet Henk." The horse [b]that[/b] walks there is called Henk. All names of countries, cities, clubs and diminutives are always het-words. [i]Masculine and feminine words (de-words) [/i] When refering to a de-word, use: the demonstrative pronoun "deze" (nearby) or "die" (far away) the relative pronoun "die" There is, however, a difference based on gender when using personal and possesive pronouns, although most native speakers don't even make that distinction. If anybody wants me to translate the rules my book gives for determining whether a word is masculine or feminine please post/PM me. [i]Plural nouns[/i] Plural nouns are always "de-words". You have to use the personal pronouns as follows: ze/zij (subject) hen (object/after a preposition) hun (indirect object) The possesive pronoun is "hun", the demonstrative pronouns are "deze" and "die" and the relative pronoun is "die". Groups consisting of more than one individual are not plural! "de politie arresteert de man" (correct) The police arrests the man "de politie arresteren de man" (INCORRECT) The police arrests the man In English both singular and plural verbs can be used when such a group is the subject of a sentence. In Dutch only singular forms can be used! [/quote]
	Mathieu	Saturday 23rd of April 2005 06:16:21 PM
	- Oh, and don't only think of groups as the police or the government or that sort of stuff, also things like "a number of people", "een aantal mensen", is a singular noun phrase. Therefore, saying "a number of people [b]are[/b]" is wrong, and this noun phrase is also 'het' ("het aantal mensen") whereas it would've been 'de' if it were plural (remember all plurals are de).
	Gijs	Saturday 23rd of April 2005 08:06:24 PM
	Adjectives - Another advantage knowing if it's a [b]de[/b] or [b]het[/b] word is that you know when to add the [b]-e[/b] to [color=red][/color]adverbs. [i][color=red][/color]Should be[/i] [color=red]adjectives[/color] [i]Dankje Teup[/i];) You always use an "e" on the end of adjectives except when the noun is a "het" word and you are referring to it with an indefinite article. Bij voorbeeld: het nederlands[b]e[/b] boek (singular, definite article) een nederlands boek (singuler, indefinite article) de nederlands[b]e[/b] boeken* (plural) *Remember that all plurals have a "de" article. de groene auto (singular, definite article) een groene auto (singular, indefinite article) de groene autos (plural) This valuable information was originally posted by [color=green]Deanara[/color].
	Mathieu	Saturday 23rd of April 2005 08:51:06 PM
	- So, with a definite article (de or het) you always get -e after the adjectives (language-used said adverbs, he means adjectives): Het groene boek De groene auto And when it's indefinite, you may or may not get an -e. What I will add to this, is that this also goes when the article is completely absent: So, Het volgende jaar (the next year) De volgende week (the next week) yields you: volgend jaar (next year) volgende week (next week) Ok. Now there's something overruling this whole "nothing or -e" system. And that is genitive constructions. When you speak of a "metal bar", then "the bar is [b]of[/b] metal" (genitive, possessive). You might be tempted to say: De metale staaf (the metal bar) But this is wrong. Those possessive adjectives always get -en. English also has some traces of this, look for example at "the wood[b]en[/b] table". So: De metal[b]en[/b] staaf (the metal bar) Het papier[b]en[/b] blad (the paper side) Etc. So, if you can rephrase it into a "a bar of metal" construction, you know the adjective gets -en. Lets go back to the "groen" example. Obviously, one can't say "a book of green". Therefore, this -en rule doesn't apply to groen. If this is all a little bit confusing, try to remember that materials are always -en. That's how I learned it in elementary school, only recently I found out -en is in fact a genitive suffix.
	Daan	Thursday 05th of May 2005 08:44:25 PM
	- Isn't the rule for the suffix changing into -en different? I have always been taught in school that the suffix changed into -en when dealing with an adjective that describes the material of which the noun consists.
	Mathieu	Thursday 05th of May 2005 10:42:16 PM
	- Yeah, it applies to all materials, because you can say: "table of wood/metal/plastic/paper", similar to "book of Peter". Both possessive constructions can be turned around, with the possessor (Peter and the materials) in front of the possesion (table and book), though Peter gets an '-s' version (allomorf), whereas the materials get an '-en', similar to our plurals in which some get '-en' and some get '-s': "houten/metalen/plastic/papieren tafel" "Peters boek" Plastic is, as you can see, an exeption, it has been borrowed recently and is therefore unaffected by that sort of morphological stuff, appearantly. I don't know if there are any other things than materials and 'owners' which can be put into the "table of ... " shape, if they can, I'm sure they'll get an '-en' suffix as well if they're placed in front of it. As I said it doesn't work with ordinary adjectives like 'green', as you can't say 'A table of green'. (So that's why it is "groen[b]e[/b] boek" and not "groen[b]en[/b] boek").
	Kaneel	Wednesday 25th of May 2005 07:41:59 PM
	I need the list of the 700 "het-woorden" - Hi all, I was told by my dutch teacher that there is a list of about 700 words needing "het". Is that true? Do you know where I could find this list (online if possible)? Thanks :o)
	Mathieu	Thursday 26th of May 2005 05:17:05 AM
	- 700? That number doesn't mean anything to me.. can be.. If you rule out compounds at least, otherwise the number is infinite. Because the last word always determines the gender (so you can build an infinite number of de and het words). I've never heard of such a list, but I also never learned Dutch as a second language of course. Can't you just learn the gender per word, instead of the words per gender?
	tmoon	Friday 27th of May 2005 10:33:04 PM
	- I'd like to point out about suffixes on nouns... ...I'm referring to suffixes such as -ing etc. which only appear on 'de' words, and suffixes such as -schap etc. which only appear on 'het' words. Also, if a verb is turned into a noun, it always becomes 'het'... the laughing - het lachen the playing - het spelen the making - het maken ...etc.
	nostromo	Friday 29th of July 2005 10:54:02 PM
	- These are bad translations, there is no 'the' necessary: Het spelen = playing Het lachen = laughing etc...
	iandominicp77	Saturday 01st of October 2005 07:04:06 PM
	hi - Erg interessant thread TEUP. I'll check it from time to time...