Dutch Passive Tenses

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Nostromo Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:07:07 PM
passive tenses - What is the fine difference between these two sentences:
1. Feesten worden vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd.
2. Feesten zijn vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd.

Perhaps the first is a general statement and the second refers to something that has happened, happens and might continue?

_dan_ Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:29:59 PM
Passive Tenses - The difference lies in a subtle difference of meaning depending on how you would express the sentences in active form.

1. Feesten worden vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd.
A corresponding active version of this sentence would be something like:
De mensen organiseren feesten vaak op zaterdag.
Here a subject has been created ('de mensen') and what they are doing (organiseren) is in the present tense.

Now let's look at the second sentence.
2. Feesten zijn vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd.
When you make this sentence active, notice the tense. We can use the same subject as before ('de mensen'). A corresponding active version of this sentence would be something like:
De mensen hebben feesten vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd.
In this case the tense used is the perfect tense ('hebben georganiseerd'). Thus this is where the difference between the two passive sentences lies.

This can also be demonstrated to English-speakers by translations of the two passive sentences:
1. Parties are often organised on Saturday.
2. Parties have often been organised on Saturday.
Roughly said, sentence one is in the present tense and sentence two is in a past tense.

Nostromo Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:43:21 PM
- A splendid reply. i ave always been troubled with worden and zijn in the passive, even though i use them daily. Here is another problem I have had:
Does: 'Je wordt gearresteerd' mean you're going to be arrested, or that you are actually being arrested at the moment?

Mathieu Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:46:23 PM
- I think the 'zijn' thing is more like: it has used often up till now, and may continute to be this way. (As opposed to: 'Feesten werden vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd', which really refers to a custom of the past).
As for usage; the latter is rarely used, you see, it's a bit vague. I'd prefer 'worden' for present tense, and 'werden' for past tense.

A side note, I also prefer the 'er' construction (unless 'feesten' is really the main topic of the talk):
Er worden/werden op zaterdag vaak feesten georganiseerd.
Or something like:
Op zaterdag worden/werden er vaak feesten georganiseerd.

Nostromo Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:51:42 PM
- thats more what i was thinking, the first sentence being a statement of custom. the second only refers to what has often happened. Indeed.

Mathieu Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:52:09 PM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i]
Does: 'Je wordt gearresteerd' mean you're going to be arrested, or that you are actually being arrested at the moment?[/quote]

Both. It's like, You're getting arrested, right now, next year, etc..

Nostromo Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:54:09 PM
- Nu weet ik voldoende.

Phrasebase Archive
	Nostromo	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:07:07 PM
	passive tenses - What is the fine difference between these two sentences: 1. Feesten worden vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd. 2. Feesten zijn vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd. Perhaps the first is a general statement and the second refers to something that has happened, happens and might continue?
	_dan_	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:29:59 PM
	Passive Tenses - The difference lies in a subtle difference of meaning depending on how you would express the sentences in active form. 1. Feesten worden vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd. A corresponding active version of this sentence would be something like: De mensen organiseren feesten vaak op zaterdag. Here a subject has been created ('de mensen') and what they are doing (organiseren) is in the present tense. Now let's look at the second sentence. 2. Feesten zijn vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd. When you make this sentence active, notice the tense. We can use the same subject as before ('de mensen'). A corresponding active version of this sentence would be something like: De mensen hebben feesten vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd. In this case the tense used is the perfect tense ('hebben georganiseerd'). Thus this is where the difference between the two passive sentences lies. This can also be demonstrated to English-speakers by translations of the two passive sentences: 1. Parties are often organised on Saturday. 2. Parties have often been organised on Saturday. Roughly said, sentence one is in the present tense and sentence two is in a past tense.
	Nostromo	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:43:21 PM
	- A splendid reply. i ave always been troubled with worden and zijn in the passive, even though i use them daily. Here is another problem I have had: Does: 'Je wordt gearresteerd' mean you're going to be arrested, or that you are actually being arrested at the moment?
	Mathieu	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:46:23 PM
	- I think the 'zijn' thing is more like: it has used often up till now, and may continute to be this way. (As opposed to: 'Feesten werden vaak op zaterdag georganiseerd', which really refers to a custom of the past). As for usage; the latter is rarely used, you see, it's a bit vague. I'd prefer 'worden' for present tense, and 'werden' for past tense. A side note, I also prefer the 'er' construction (unless 'feesten' is really the main topic of the talk): Er worden/werden op zaterdag vaak feesten georganiseerd. Or something like: Op zaterdag worden/werden er vaak feesten georganiseerd.
	Nostromo	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:51:42 PM
	- thats more what i was thinking, the first sentence being a statement of custom. the second only refers to what has often happened. Indeed.
	Mathieu	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:52:09 PM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i] Does: 'Je wordt gearresteerd' mean you're going to be arrested, or that you are actually being arrested at the moment?[/quote] Both. It's like, You're getting arrested, right now, next year, etc..
	Nostromo	Wednesday 06th of July 2005 10:54:09 PM
	- Nu weet ik voldoende.