Dutch Phrases From Old Case Forms

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Nostromo Friday 15th of July 2005 12:46:50 AM
Phrases from Old Case Forms - There are loads of Dutch expressions based on obsolete case forms (with der, des and die...). They are very common though and usually translate tricky idioms that might be otherwise cumbersome. I have a few here, does anyone else have any others?

Reden te meer = all the more reason
Des te beter = all the better
Desgevraagd = if you like
Macht der gewwonte = force of habit
Ter vergelijking = by ay of comparison
Ter illustratie = by way of illustration
Desnoods = if necessary

Friday 15th of July 2005 01:08:41 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i]

Desgevraagd = if you like
Macht der gewwonte = force of habit
[/quote]

Two little mistakes:

[i]Desgevraagd = if you like[/i]
It means the same as [b]indien gevraagd[/b] = [b]When asked[/b]

[i]Macht der gewwonte[/i]
Macht der [b]gewoonte[/b] (your finger slipped on the keyboard) ;)
gewoonte = habit

[i]Some others that i can think of:[/i]

Ter informatie = for your information.
Ter nauwernood = just in the nick of time. ( think of escaping)
Des morgens = written as: s'morgens = in de morning.
Desgelijks / insgelijks = the same.

Friday 15th of July 2005 01:09:32 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i]

Desgevraagd = if you like
Macht der gewwonte = force of habit
[/quote]

Two little mistakes:

[i]Desgevraagd = if you like[/i]
It means the same as [b]indien gevraagd[/b] = [b]When asked[/b]

[i]Macht der gewwonte[/i]
Macht der [b]gewoonte[/b] (your finger slipped on the keyboard) ;)
gewoonte = habit

[i]Some others that i can think of:[/i]

Ter informatie = for your information.
Ter nauwernood = just in the nick of time. ( think of escaping)
Des morgens = written as: s'morgens = in de morning.
Desgelijks / insgelijks = the same.

Gijs Friday 15th of July 2005 01:11:44 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i]

Desgevraagd = if you like
Macht der gewwonte = force of habit
[/quote]

Two little mistakes:

[i]Desgevraagd = if you like[/i]
It means the same as [b]indien gevraagd[/b] = [b]When asked[/b]

[i]Macht der gewwonte[/i]
Macht der [b]gewoonte[/b] (your finger slipped on the keyboard) ;)
gewoonte = habit

[i]Some others that i can think of:[/i]

Ter informatie = for your information.
Ter nauwernood = just in the nick of time. ( think of escaping)
Des morgens = written as: s'morgens = in de morning.
Desgelijks / insgelijks = the same.

Nostromo Friday 15th of July 2005 01:33:53 AM
- Je hebt gelijk, mijn vinger gleed helemaal van de toetsenbord af! Ik bedoelde ook 'desgewenst' in plaats van 'desgevraagd, maar ja, u kan ik het niet veranderen...! Bedankt hoor!

Nostromo Friday 15th of July 2005 01:34:53 AM
- tpyfout!!! Nu kan ik het niet veranderen...!'

Nostromo Friday 15th of July 2005 01:37:30 AM
- I give up...i just can't type.

Gijs Friday 15th of July 2005 02:42:16 AM
- Hey Nostromo..:D haha, Het gaat heel erg goed met jouw nederlands..! Maak je geen zorgen om het foutje.;)

Je kan jouw post niet 'editten'?..hmm...Ik denk dat ik daar schuldig aan ben. I am guilty i think,because i have messed this topic up a little when trying to post the reply the first time...I wasn't logged-in correctly. sorry for that.

ps:You wrote [b]U[/b]? (the formal form of 'you'....->now i feel old.
Please say: 'je' en 'jouw'
(i write this because people will have to deal with this 'problem' while speaking dutch.) ;)

succes!
Tot ziens :)

*edit:Ik heb niet goed gelezen,Je wilde [b]nu[/b] schrijven. Nu zie ik het ;) Ik ben toe aan vakantie :D

Mathieu Friday 15th of July 2005 02:57:25 AM
- "Mijns Inziens" = The way I see it

The fun thing about this one is that there's a doubled genitive in it: 'Inzien' belongs to 'Ik' so we get 'mijn', and then the whole phrase 'mijn inzien' becomes possessor of the statement that follows it, therefore the word 'mijns' is actually double inflected for genitive case :) Other forms of that one:

"Onzes inziens", and even "jullies inziens" is correct.

"Dichter des vaderlands" = Poet of the fatherland (title)
(Similar things are "Zoon des huizes" (zoon van het huis), "Vader des vaderlands" (vader van het vaderland))

"'s ochtends" (des ochtends, van de ochtend) = in the morning
(Similar things are "'s middags", "'s avonds", etc. I even use "'s weekends", which sounds weird, because it combines an archaic construction with a more recently borrowed word; weekend :D)

As you may know there are two ways of constructing a genitive relationship: genitive case, and preposition + accusative case. EG, "Mijn boek" and "Boek van mij". Now, the fun thing about the time indicators is, it matters which one you use!
"'s ochtends" (genitive case) = in the morning (in general)
"vanochtend" ('van'+accusative case) = this particular morning

What else is there.. Oh, I've always found this one confusing:
"Ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen" = Idleness is the devil's pillow
'Des duivels' is the archaic genitive part, the possessor, the possessed thing is 'oorkussen'.

"Desalniettemin" = nevertheless
That one looks like it has some genitive thing in it.

About the 'der' and 'des' in general, people still tend to use it, like with titles; "Eigenschappen der grammatica" sounds more classy than "Eigenschappen van de grammatica". However, it matters whether the word is Masculine or Feminine, and since nobody knows which one it is, they just use 'der' and 'des' at random. A bit like people that use 'whom' even when it's the subject of the sentence.

Nostromo Friday 15th of July 2005 09:27:01 PM
- Teup, that was a most interesting post. I like that ‘mijns/onzes/jullies inziens’ business. Even thoughI find it thoroughly amusing to use such constructions, I do wonder how much these can be used in everyday speech? The shortened ‘des’ is also used with three days of the week: ‘s Zondags, ‘s maandags, ‘s woensdags, but not the other four. Why should this be so?

Three other things:

1. That thing about the ‘weekend’ seems perfectly good to me, and is ‘weekeind’ actually a Dutch original or a version of the borrowed word?
2. ‘s morgens might be better rendered as: is the mornings (mornings in general, final ‘s’)
3. If you’re puzzled by ‘Ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen’, I’ve no chance! The English say: The devil finds work for idle hands too do.

Bedankt van tevoren

Mathieu Friday 15th of July 2005 10:51:07 PM
- Hmm, that's weird about 's zondags, 's maandags and 's woensdags, I only know 's zondags, and that's perhaps because of little song "Altijd is Kort Jakje ziek, midden in de week maar 's zondags niet..". I think it has to do with archaic expressions, songs, things like that, that by chance meantion 's zondags, 's maandags and 's woensdags (though I only know the first) and not the others, because logically they are all possible. The words for the other days must be just as old as the others too.

The Dutch word for weekend would be weekeinde, which is also used, although also "'s weekeindes" sounds just as unusual as "'s weekends" (though they are usable, nice neologisms :)). I think at the time of the 'des' constructions the concept of weekend might have been unknown, people would rather put it like 's zondags, maybe.

Thanks for the 'mornings' explaination. About 'Ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen', it's a but confusing to see what part belongs to what, I doubt if many natives know that it is in fact "Ledigheid IS het oorkussen van de duivel" and not "Ledigheid is VAN het oorkussen van de duivel", or something else maybe. I think we totally lost native feel over those old constructions, the only ones that are used are either the ones mentioned (just the idiomatic expressions) and maybe variants on them (like 'jullies inziens'). Real active use of those constructions is absent, way too confusing for anyone I think :)

Phrasebase Archive
	Nostromo	Friday 15th of July 2005 12:46:50 AM
	Phrases from Old Case Forms - There are loads of Dutch expressions based on obsolete case forms (with der, des and die...). They are very common though and usually translate tricky idioms that might be otherwise cumbersome. I have a few here, does anyone else have any others? Reden te meer = all the more reason Des te beter = all the better Desgevraagd = if you like Macht der gewwonte = force of habit Ter vergelijking = by ay of comparison Ter illustratie = by way of illustration Desnoods = if necessary
		Friday 15th of July 2005 01:08:41 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i] Desgevraagd = if you like Macht der gewwonte = force of habit [/quote] Two little mistakes: [i]Desgevraagd = if you like[/i] It means the same as [b]indien gevraagd[/b] = [b]When asked[/b] [i]Macht der gewwonte[/i] Macht der [b]gewoonte[/b] (your finger slipped on the keyboard) ;) gewoonte = habit [i]Some others that i can think of:[/i] Ter informatie = for your information. Ter nauwernood = just in the nick of time. ( think of escaping) Des morgens = written as: s'morgens = in de morning. Desgelijks / insgelijks = the same.
		Friday 15th of July 2005 01:09:32 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i] Desgevraagd = if you like Macht der gewwonte = force of habit [/quote] Two little mistakes: [i]Desgevraagd = if you like[/i] It means the same as [b]indien gevraagd[/b] = [b]When asked[/b] [i]Macht der gewwonte[/i] Macht der [b]gewoonte[/b] (your finger slipped on the keyboard) ;) gewoonte = habit [i]Some others that i can think of:[/i] Ter informatie = for your information. Ter nauwernood = just in the nick of time. ( think of escaping) Des morgens = written as: s'morgens = in de morning. Desgelijks / insgelijks = the same.
	Gijs	Friday 15th of July 2005 01:11:44 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i] Desgevraagd = if you like Macht der gewwonte = force of habit [/quote] Two little mistakes: [i]Desgevraagd = if you like[/i] It means the same as [b]indien gevraagd[/b] = [b]When asked[/b] [i]Macht der gewwonte[/i] Macht der [b]gewoonte[/b] (your finger slipped on the keyboard) ;) gewoonte = habit [i]Some others that i can think of:[/i] Ter informatie = for your information. Ter nauwernood = just in the nick of time. ( think of escaping) Des morgens = written as: s'morgens = in de morning. Desgelijks / insgelijks = the same.
	Nostromo	Friday 15th of July 2005 01:33:53 AM
	- Je hebt gelijk, mijn vinger gleed helemaal van de toetsenbord af! Ik bedoelde ook 'desgewenst' in plaats van 'desgevraagd, maar ja, u kan ik het niet veranderen...! Bedankt hoor!
	Nostromo	Friday 15th of July 2005 01:34:53 AM
	- tpyfout!!! Nu kan ik het niet veranderen...!'
	Nostromo	Friday 15th of July 2005 01:37:30 AM
	- I give up...i just can't type.
	Gijs	Friday 15th of July 2005 02:42:16 AM
	- Hey Nostromo..:D haha, Het gaat heel erg goed met jouw nederlands..! Maak je geen zorgen om het foutje.;) Je kan jouw post niet 'editten'?..hmm...Ik denk dat ik daar schuldig aan ben. I am guilty i think,because i have messed this topic up a little when trying to post the reply the first time...I wasn't logged-in correctly. sorry for that. ps:You wrote [b]U[/b]? (the formal form of 'you'....->now i feel old. Please say: 'je' en 'jouw' (i write this because people will have to deal with this 'problem' while speaking dutch.) ;) succes! Tot ziens :) *edit:Ik heb niet goed gelezen,Je wilde [b]nu[/b] schrijven. Nu zie ik het ;) Ik ben toe aan vakantie :D
	Mathieu	Friday 15th of July 2005 02:57:25 AM
	- "Mijns Inziens" = The way I see it The fun thing about this one is that there's a doubled genitive in it: 'Inzien' belongs to 'Ik' so we get 'mijn', and then the whole phrase 'mijn inzien' becomes possessor of the statement that follows it, therefore the word 'mijns' is actually double inflected for genitive case :) Other forms of that one: "Onzes inziens", and even "jullies inziens" is correct. "Dichter des vaderlands" = Poet of the fatherland (title) (Similar things are "Zoon des huizes" (zoon van het huis), "Vader des vaderlands" (vader van het vaderland)) "'s ochtends" (des ochtends, van de ochtend) = in the morning (Similar things are "'s middags", "'s avonds", etc. I even use "'s weekends", which sounds weird, because it combines an archaic construction with a more recently borrowed word; weekend :D) As you may know there are two ways of constructing a genitive relationship: genitive case, and preposition + accusative case. EG, "Mijn boek" and "Boek van mij". Now, the fun thing about the time indicators is, it matters which one you use! "'s ochtends" (genitive case) = in the morning (in general) "vanochtend" ('van'+accusative case) = this particular morning What else is there.. Oh, I've always found this one confusing: "Ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen" = Idleness is the devil's pillow 'Des duivels' is the archaic genitive part, the possessor, the possessed thing is 'oorkussen'. "Desalniettemin" = nevertheless That one looks like it has some genitive thing in it. About the 'der' and 'des' in general, people still tend to use it, like with titles; "Eigenschappen der grammatica" sounds more classy than "Eigenschappen van de grammatica". However, it matters whether the word is Masculine or Feminine, and since nobody knows which one it is, they just use 'der' and 'des' at random. A bit like people that use 'whom' even when it's the subject of the sentence.
	Nostromo	Friday 15th of July 2005 09:27:01 PM
	- Teup, that was a most interesting post. I like that ‘mijns/onzes/jullies inziens’ business. Even thoughI find it thoroughly amusing to use such constructions, I do wonder how much these can be used in everyday speech? The shortened ‘des’ is also used with three days of the week: ‘s Zondags, ‘s maandags, ‘s woensdags, but not the other four. Why should this be so? Three other things: 1. That thing about the ‘weekend’ seems perfectly good to me, and is ‘weekeind’ actually a Dutch original or a version of the borrowed word? 2. ‘s morgens might be better rendered as: is the mornings (mornings in general, final ‘s’) 3. If you’re puzzled by ‘Ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen’, I’ve no chance! The English say: The devil finds work for idle hands too do. Bedankt van tevoren
	Mathieu	Friday 15th of July 2005 10:51:07 PM
	- Hmm, that's weird about 's zondags, 's maandags and 's woensdags, I only know 's zondags, and that's perhaps because of little song "Altijd is Kort Jakje ziek, midden in de week maar 's zondags niet..". I think it has to do with archaic expressions, songs, things like that, that by chance meantion 's zondags, 's maandags and 's woensdags (though I only know the first) and not the others, because logically they are all possible. The words for the other days must be just as old as the others too. The Dutch word for weekend would be weekeinde, which is also used, although also "'s weekeindes" sounds just as unusual as "'s weekends" (though they are usable, nice neologisms :)). I think at the time of the 'des' constructions the concept of weekend might have been unknown, people would rather put it like 's zondags, maybe. Thanks for the 'mornings' explaination. About 'Ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen', it's a but confusing to see what part belongs to what, I doubt if many natives know that it is in fact "Ledigheid IS het oorkussen van de duivel" and not "Ledigheid is VAN het oorkussen van de duivel", or something else maybe. I think we totally lost native feel over those old constructions, the only ones that are used are either the ones mentioned (just the idiomatic expressions) and maybe variants on them (like 'jullies inziens'). Real active use of those constructions is absent, way too confusing for anyone I think :)