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Psyche
Sunday 31st of July 2005 09:34:15 PM
Random questions: I finally made it to the Dutch thread..:p

I just started studying Dutch, seriously, after months of "yeah, I have totally begun". Not that it was untrue either, but now I think i have to move on from basic swear word in Dutch, to the real thing!

Anyway, the point of this thread, is that I may stumble on to simple questions of various character, and I thought that I could ask for help here. If any other student have a question about the language, feel free to ask them here :)

My first question would be a bit strange, but hey, that is why I started the thread in the first place.

After hearing some of the Dutch consonants spoken on tape, it seemed like the "w" was pronounced like a "b", like in "wit". I didn`t hear that in other actual words though. I guess this was just my hearing ability going nuts, but I would appreciate a comment from Dutch speakers.

Another question about pronouncation (yeah, yeah), is regarding the R`s. Sometimes they sounded just like an "American" R (veerplegster), sometimes like the "typical Dutch" R (Gerdi) and sometimes like a Spanish/Norwegian/rolling-but-no-guttal-sound in words like "kunstenares".

Maybe I am just hearing things that doesn`t excist, but I would very much appreciate it if someone could help me out :)

Bedankt in advance :)


Daan
Sunday 31st of July 2005 10:05:15 PM
Originally posted by psyche
I finally made it to the Dutch thread..:p

I just started studying Dutch, seriously, after months of "yeah, I have totally begun". Not that it was untrue either, but now I think i have to move on from basic swear word in Dutch, to the real thing!
Wohooo


After hearing some of the Dutch consonants spoken on tape, it seemed like the "w" was pronounced like a "b", like in "wit". I didn`t hear that in other actual words though. I guess this was just my hearing ability going nuts, but I would appreciate a comment from Dutch speakers.
They have been drinking too much beer, or your hearing ability is diminishing :D

Another question about pronouncation (yeah, yeah), is regarding the R`s. Sometimes they sounded just like an "American" R (veerplegster), sometimes like the "typical Dutch" R (Gerdi) and sometimes like a Spanish/Norwegian/rolling-but-no-guttal-sound in words like "kunstenares.
Hum...I'll leave that one to Teup, our pronunciation expert, because I cannot spot any difference in my own pronunciation of these three words ;p

Bedankt in advance :)
Graag gedaan



Mathieu
Thursday 04th of August 2005 06:08:03 AM
(((REASSURER: Note that all info in this topic is optional and intended for phonetic geeks. If you don't understand any of this, you can still learn to do it perfectly by intuition and practise. :p)))

Originally posted by psyche
After hearing some of the Dutch consonants spoken on tape, it seemed like the "w" was pronounced like a "b", like in "wit". I didn`t hear that in other actual words though. I guess this was just my hearing ability going nuts, but I would appreciate a comment from Dutch speakers.


I've heard Clayton say that too.. his language doesn't distinguish between b and w though :) There is some logic in it, see, the w is a fricative sound, whereas the b is a plosive. That is, for the b you build up pressure and then release it like a little explosion :) That's the only little difference between those two, otherwise they have the exact same location of pronounciation (namely the lips). So, to make a Dutch w, say a sloppy b (that is, without making that explosion).

So much for phonetics theory, you can forget about this, since it's just fine if you use a Norwegian v instead (if that is the same as the Swedish one at least). It might also help in reading words, replace the Dutch w's by v's and it'll look a whole lot more Norwegian (wel = vel)

Originally posted by psyche
Another question about pronouncation (yeah, yeah), is regarding the R`s. Sometimes they sounded just like an "American" R (veerplegster), sometimes like the "typical Dutch" R (Gerdi) and sometimes like a Spanish/Norwegian/rolling-but-no-guttal-sound in words like "kunstenares".

Ok. I'll see if I can explain this clearly. There are several options. For the syllable initial r's (the ones that are before the vowel, like in 'rot') you can either give your go at the r that doesn't really roll (something like the French one, a bit more to the front), or you can just roll them like you would in Norwegian. These are two options, either is fine and after a conversation a Dutch speaker wouldn't be able to tell what version you use (in fact, even after years they might not be able recall).

As for the r's at the end of syllables, like in 'tor', you'd use the one in Swedish in that position I think (like in 'mer') (Axystos, correct me if I'm wrong..). It's indeed more English like. In a word with more consonants at the end, like 'werk', you can either keep using that one, or you can use the one that you used in 'rot'. (You might find that if you do that, the word will sound as if it had two syllables, namely "weh-rek". That's just fine.)

Back to your example:
Kunstenaar (kun - ste - naar)
-> The Swedish/English one
(the rolling one and the Frenchy one are both impossible here, do you see this? This goes for 'verpleegster' and 'Gerdi' as well, if you heared a rolling or Frenchy one in Gerdi, they were just overpronouncing, because in normal speech it's always that Swedish/English one in that position in standard Dutch*)

Kunstenares (kun - ste - na - res)
-> The Frenchy one
or
-> The Norwegian one


I hope this helped a bit, just ask about the unclear parts about this explaination and I'll try again :) I love the randomness of these questions, keep it coming (other students as well!) :)

*As for Daan's inability to hear the difference between his r's, it might be that you have a Southern accent which uses the Frenchy ones in all cases. A native could afford something like that, but I think it would be best if Nat just learns the standard ;)


Daan
Thursday 04th of August 2005 03:03:39 PM
Hum...well there is a minor difference but it's so slight that I cannot explain it in words - you can ;)


Psyche
Thursday 04th of August 2005 04:14:20 PM
Thank you! I really appreciate it :)
Let me just re-read this another 5 times, and I think I`ll get the hang of it (how the hell is "mer" pronounced in Swedish anyway? :p ).
Thanks to you also Daan, for both complimenting my hearing abilty and sounding very overjoyed about my arrival in the Dutch forum. It should be WOHOOO instead though ;)


Mathieu
Thursday 04th of August 2005 08:13:55 PM
Hmm well if you just pronounce 'tor' like you would in English it would be fine I think.. when using Enlgish r's there's a slight risk of sounding posh and snobbish, but if that's the case I'll correct it later on in the chat sometime :)


Psyche
Thursday 04th of August 2005 08:52:04 PM
Don`t doubt it Teup!! :p

I have now another question (oh nooo!)...

I just took some Dutch exercises on the net.
I was supposed to translate this to Dutch:

"They are father"

Eh..yeah.

Don`t you have plural for "father"?


I also had to translate "zij is moeder"..

Eh...still yeah!

Sounds a bit Tarzan like? Perhaps? :p

*crazy Dutch* ;)




Mathieu
Friday 05th of August 2005 01:33:12 AM
Seems you got yourself some confusing exercises :p The plural of vader is vaders, no idea where that awkward sentence came from :p

'Zij is moeder' is a fine sentence though, it means "she is a mother". Titles have no determiner, so also "he is a fireman" would be "hij is brandweerman". Saying "hij is een brandweerman" is fine also though, but without the 'een' you somehow emphasize a little more that this is his/her fulltime occupation, so just try remember to drop the determiner when it comes to titles and occupations when saying someone is/will be/was that. Or just forget about it for now, it's such a minor issue.. :p

EDIT: Oh, about the "they are father", "zij zijn vader" is a fine sentence (literal translation). You don't need a plural, vaders (though "zij zijn vaders" is a good sentence also), because you talk about fatherhood in general, it's a bit like saying: 'their occupation is being father'.


Tulipanka
Friday 05th of August 2005 05:42:44 AM
Hi to you all!
Alles goed?
If you need any help just ask :-)


Psyche
Monday 08th of August 2005 09:08:57 PM
Thank you for your help!

Monday and Tuesday is now the official Dutch days for me, so it is at that time that strange and mysterious questions will hit this thread!


As they said in one of the courses I follow, note that Mieke and Mia use the words h and toch to indicate when they are not certain.

Yeah..then they didn`t mention it again. I think I understood the usage of it..I think..but I have one question nevertheless. Is one of the forms more sophisticated than the other? Is it more casual to say (don`t blame me for this sentence, my vocab is nearly non-existent :p )

Jij bent tandarts, h?.

than

Jij bent toch tandarts?.


And what is up with "jij/je" and "zij/ze"?
Is it the same which form you use? Is je/ze newer ways of writing jij/zij? And has "hij" a "he" form? Are there different dialects which decide which form you would use? Can you write a text and shift between writing "jij/hij/zij" and "je/he(?)/ze" or do you need to decided which form you`ll use and stick to it?
Sorry for all the questions about a small thing!

I also noticed while chatting with Daan that he used "je" with me. And that is fine of course. But if we met each other in real life...no, that is not a good example since he is only a year younger than me...hm...if I met you Teup, would I be using "jij/je" or "u" when addressing you? I couldn`t really say that I knew you well and you are a few years older than me (read: grown :D ). Of course I would be using "u" with Gijs, but I am not sure about people around my age. I`d probably use "u" anyway. Not with Daan, of course :p He`s a kid ;)

I have no idea what I have just been writing down in this post. I`ll probably edit this a thousand times :p

Thanks!


Daan
Tuesday 09th of August 2005 12:26:41 AM
Originally posted by Psyche
Thank you for your help!

Monday and Tuesday is now the official Dutch days for me, so it is at that time that strange and mysterious questions will hit this thread!
Bring it on ;)
As they said in one of the courses I follow, note that Mieke and Mia use the words h and toch to indicate when they are not certain.

Yeah..then they didn`t mention it again. I think I understood the usage of it..I think..but I have one question nevertheless. Is one of the forms more sophisticated than the other? Is it more casual to say (don`t blame me for this sentence, my vocam is nearly non-existent :p )

Jij bent tandarts, h?.
than
Jij bent toch tandarts?.

They pretty much mean the same, although the first option expresses slightly more doubt than the second one. However, a dentist is somebody you'd address with "u" - particularly in this context because you show that you don't know him very well.

And what is up with "jij/je" and "zij/ze"?
Is it the same which form you use? Is je/ze newer ways of writing jij/zij?
Teup might have a better explanation for this one, but jij/zij are more focussed and je/ze are less focussed. An example:
Jij bent gek, ik niet. (YOU are crazy, I am not.)
Here, "jij" is used because the speaker wants to emphasise that he deems the other partner to be an idiot, not himself. (this is just an example, no subtle hints :D).

And has "hij" a "he" form? Are there different dialects which decide which form you would use?
There is no "he"-form, but I don't know about the dialects.

Can you write a text and shift between writing "jij/hij/zij" and "je/he(?)/ze" or do you need to decided which form you`ll use and stick to it?
It depends on whether you want to focus or not, I think.

I also noticed while chatting with Daan that he used "je" with me. And that is fine of course. But if we met each other in real life...no, that is not a good example since he is only a year younger than me...hm...if I met you Teup, would I be using "jij/je" or "u" when addressing you? I couldn`t really say that I knew you well and you are a few older than me (read: grown :D ). Of course I would be using "u" with Gijs, but I am not sure about people around my age. I`d probably use "u" anyway. Not with Daan, of course :p He`s a kid ;)
i will refuse to answer your questions from now on even though i do know the answer! bye!


Psyche
Monday 05th of September 2005 11:56:44 PM
Oh, Daan, please answer too :p *awww*
I almost take it back!! :D

I have new challenges for you know ;)

A Dutch u, how is it usually pronounced? In the pronounciation guide they say that it should be like in kus, but in all of the other words I`ve encountered, it is pronounced like the u in..yeah..u :p
So, how is it really? How is thuis pronounced? And is th pronounced like in English?

I did notice that the one lady on the tape always rolls her r`s and that the other one almost have an American-like r on the same words. So I see that i can use whatever I like... almost :p

AND, most of them can`t say z as well, they only say s. So don`t you worry Tp ;)




Axystos
Tuesday 06th of September 2005 02:04:40 AM
It's so good that you're from Norway, Psyche:

Originally posted by Psyche


How is thuis pronounced? And is th pronounced like in English?
When I was in Norway, I always pronounced the norwegian 'y' as the dutch 'ui', and people never objected. Or at least they never laughed in my face because of this, so I guess I wasn't too far off. :)

So I'm guessing "thuis" should be pronounced as 'tys' (th='t'). In order to be sure, you could post a sound file of yourself, pronouncing 'tys', so that the dutchies can compare. :)

I'll leave the 'u' to someone else who knows more about pronunciation.


Mathieu
Tuesday 06th of September 2005 03:01:21 AM
As with most vowels, there's a long and a short version, and the u is no exception :)

Short:
Single, not at the end of a syllable
Put, terug (TE - RUG), hurken (HUR - KEN), lukken (LUK - KEN), dus, hulp

Long:
Double
Duur, tuurlijk, muur
OR
Single, at the end of a syllable
Uren (U - REN), u, paraplu (PA - RA - PLU)

(this system goes for at least the a and the o as well, for the e to some extend, and the i also with the exception that 'ii' -> 'ie')

Now, you're wondering, how is it then that these are pronounced? Well, the everlasting 'u' matter :D The long one, it's like German , or roughly Swedish u, or Scottish English oo (in 'good').
The short one is an uh sound, rougly like the 'i' in 'bird' - it's vowel your mouth makes when completely relaxed, so it's the easiest vowel on earth :)

Hmm, I can't resist the temptation to add useless info again :D (as if I haven't already :p). Now other vowels, mainly the 'e', have a tendency to turn uh like as well in some cases, in cases in which they are completely unstressed. This includes prefixes like 'ge' and 'be' ('geschreven' -> g(uh)schrev(uh)n), and also function words like 'het' (sounds like 'hut' in a quick and casual conversation) and 'een' (sounds like 'un') and 'er' (sounds like 'ur'). So, there's no difference whatsoever in sound here - 'geschreven' could as well have been written as 'gusschrevun'.
Yeah, I just felt like talking, I could go on and on about this particular issue but I won't :D It's up to you students what to do with this info :p


Psyche
Tuesday 06th of September 2005 03:47:51 AM
Let me just read what you wrote three times over :p

*done*

Well, I love reading "useless info" when it comes to languages, so it is very much appreciated.
So "dank u" would sound like the German "danke" almost :D Gosh, how you hate Germans ;) *nudges*

Thank you so very much!


Mathieu
Tuesday 06th of September 2005 04:10:12 AM
As the 'u' in 'Dank u' is the only letter of it's syllable, so it's the long u, and that one sounded like the german / Scottish 'oo' thing, so luckily it doesn't sounds like 'danke', which has an 'eh' or 'uh' ;) Don't they ever say 'dank u' on your courses? Nice people they are :p


Psyche
Tuesday 06th of September 2005 04:15:45 AM
They have said it :p

Still like German though :D

But I get the point, they are saying so much weird stuff on my course, so who cares. I`ll fix it when I go to the Netherlands some day :)


Mathieu
Tuesday 06th of September 2005 05:01:23 AM
Ah, then that seemingly useless info that i gave comes in to play: they say 'dank u' quick and casual, and voila, the 'u' turns into that 'uh' sound because they are a lazy bunch of Dutchmen - just like with the function word examples that I gave. See, I am so forseeing when I'm explaining.. :p


Psyche
Saturday 17th of September 2005 03:22:23 PM
Since you are forseeing, you ought to know my next questions. Wonderful, now I don`t have to post here anymore, you can just answer my questions when you get the "vibes" from me :p

-



-

*transferring vibes*

-



-


Okay, for you other people out there, I`ll write my questions anyway :p *so kind*

"Heel" seems to be pronounced like the English "heal". I thought it should be like "heil" or something. Any rule here? :p

I know that "morgen" means "tomorrow". What is "today/yesterday"?

Thank y`all :)



Axystos
Sunday 18th of September 2005 12:01:31 AM
Originally posted by Psyche

"Heel" seems to be pronounced like the English "heal". I thought it should be like "heil" or something. Any rule here? :p
The dutch 'heel' is pronounced more like 'hail'. General pronunciation rules apply here. :)

I know that "morgen" means "tomorrow". What is "today/yesterday"?
vandaag/gisteren



Mathieu
Sunday 18th of September 2005 01:08:42 AM
ee is pronounced like English 'eigh', except or these cases:

-> 'een': function word, just say 'un'

-> before R or L. In these cases it's pronounced like the 'i' in 'bit', but longer. That's not such a weird rule to learn; it's physically hardly possible to stick to the 'eigh' :D

Yeah, just what Axy said actually, it sounds like 'hail'.


Psyche
Wednesday 21st of September 2005 12:46:48 AM
Thanks for everything :)

Now....:D Need I say more? :D

And throw in the "aa" as well :D


Mathieu
Wednesday 21st of September 2005 03:54:47 AM
Well well - given my superb explanation in dutch word order skills, how unexpected ;)

The g...

Here's a tactic that might work. The g is articulated at roughly the same position as the k is. Say a k - you'll notice that you'll push your tongue against your palate (this expensive scientific latin word is the only one the lousy english language has to name that ceiling of your mouth), and then you'll suddenly release it and you get a slight explosion, as you will.
Alright, now the g is essentially the same thing, the diff is that you don't let it explode like that, it is a continuous sound.
Now, what I'm getting at is trying to leak your k - try to say a k, let your tongue move upwards, BUT, prevent it from really touching the ceiling. That way you won't get that k explosion, but rather some continuous friction sound (if you don't hear anything, make the gap more narrow and/or put more pressure on it; speak up). Experiment with it a bit (perhaps try to articulate a bit further back in the mouth, see for yourself).

All in all, just remember it's created in the MOUTH, not down the THROAT like the Arabic 'kh'ish sound.. if you got that idea you can hardly do wrong anymore :)
I hope this is at least partly understandable.. I know someone for who it works, perhaps there's another student or two here that can take some advantage of this :)

Hmm, the aa? Not much to say about that one - it is the most open vowel in the world, and as a student of the beautiful language which is Dutch, you're privileged to (have to) learn it yourself :D Oh boy, such excitement ;)
Languages like English and Norwegian tend to hold back slightly when saying 'a' (like in 'father', which is rather the sound for the short 'a' vowel), you might want to try pretend you're at the dentist's and have to say A real wide.. maybe it's just a matter of overacting your short 'a', and lengthening it.. oh well, just try some tactics and have fun I'd say :)


Psyche
Thursday 22nd of September 2005 03:10:08 PM
I`ll work at it as soon as I can talk again. Maybe tomorrow :)

It made perfectly sense though, so at least, my "g" won`t be as bad as it has been up till now :p

I have another question for either Tp or Ax...:p

(Frstemann til mlla :D)

What is the Norwegian/Swedish equivalence for "dan graag/graag" and "alstublieft/asjeblieft"? It is just translated with "please", but I lguess you can`t use both whenever you want?

.....and yes.....I HATE the word "graag"...I can`t prounounce non of the letters properly...*ARGH* :D


Mathieu
Friday 23rd of September 2005 05:38:48 AM
'dan graag'? hmm, never heard that, it'd be 'graag'. I'd say,

Alstublieft/Alsjeblieft - Varsgod
Graag - Grna
(or if you're like me you say 'gaarne', but that's not recommended :p)

But I'm pretty bad at the Swedish ones as well so I'm not really sure.. 'graag' is used when you're expressing you like the idea of something, so a polite way of saying OK ('yes please' - 'ja, graag', 'i would like...' - 'ik wil graag...') . Alstublieft is when you either hand something to someone, or when you're asking for a favour ('there you go' - 'alsjeblieft', 'Could you please ...?' - 'Kun je alsjeblieft ...?').


Psyche
Tuesday 27th of September 2005 11:42:02 PM
I think I got that....I`ll just not use "dan graag" then :p

I was talking to my Somali friend today, and she said that I sounded so English when speaking Dutch :p My r`s should be like the Norwegian ones she said. I blame it on the recordings I have mainly :p Like, "oo" should be like in "boat". "Uu" as the Norwegian "u". Obviously not :p She told me that I sounded snobbish and a bit strange (she was laughing kindly when saying so though :p )..also that she had never heard the English r at all. I am glad I can practise a biiiit with her though, not so embarassing as with the other girl :)

At least, she said nothing about my g`s :p :D


Mathieu
Wednesday 28th of September 2005 12:12:56 AM
Hehe, can't say I didn't tell you so - English r's sound snobbish, that's just a fact :D You can put whatever sound you like for the r, as long as it isn't identical to English (it may sound like it if that's your opinion, but if you do it exactly as you would in English, it'll be snobbish :))..

Oh, the English 'r' is called retroflex - you curl the tip of your tongue backwards (try it - 'rod' 'door' - both are retroflex), now, as long as you don't do that backwards curl in your dutch r, you're out of the danger zone :D what you do make if it, well, do what comes naturally (relatively :D), I'm sure it'll be ok ;)

Dutch isn't so picky, the taboos are
-English (retroflex) 'r' for an 'r'
-Arabic breathy 'h' sound for a 'g'

Anything else is fine with me :)

(and still I haven't heard you...)


Psyche
Friday 30th of September 2005 05:07:02 PM
How is it even *possible* to not curl your tongue and still make a sound in that position! :p :p

Actually, I think my g`s are better now, thus, I still think that there isn`t *that* a difference from the Dutch and Arbic *h*, though the Dutch one isn`t made from the throat as you said. I thought it was much prettier with an english-ish r, but I will try to use a Norwegian/Frenchy one from now on. You must hear the recordings one time though, if those r aren`t like the British ones, then what is! :p

Anywaysss, what is the difference between "ons" and "onze". Is it some sort of "jij/je" thing or is there a rule when to use which?

Bedankt :p


Gijs
Saturday 01st of October 2005 01:31:34 AM
Originally posted by Psyche

Anywaysss, what is the difference between "ons" and "onze". Is it some sort of "jij/je" thing or is there a rule when to use which?

Bedankt :p

Hoi psyche :)

No,it's not like the "jij/je" thingy..

ons is used for 'Het' words.
Onze is used for 'De' words and plural.

Voorbeeld: (example)

Het huis -> Ons huis. (our house)
De auto -> Onze auto. (our car)

Twee voorbeelden van een woord in het meervoud: (plural)

De huizen -> Onze huizen.
De auto's -> Onze auto's

How to know when is a word a 'de' or 'het' word? I don't know a rule,but i know there is a good topic about that here somewhere. From Teup I believe :)

Succes!




Psyche
Sunday 16th of October 2005 05:31:36 AM
Dank u Gijs :) (you rock! :D)

The annoying student is back with more questions..:p

1: I understand that "dragen" means "to wear"....but in this sentence it sounds a bit weird, "Zij draagt een attachkoffertje". How do you use this verb? Do I wear a purse as well? :)

2: What does "oefent" mean? :p


That`s all for now :D


Mathieu
Sunday 16th of October 2005 07:07:06 AM
'dragen' is 'carry' rather than wear. With the exception that you can 'dragen' clothes, I guess :) (you can also say 'Ik heb ... aan' for wearing).
No, you don't wear a purse :) you have it with you; 'bij je'. Unless you're in Belgium perhaps :D Some Belg once asked if I was "wearing an hourwork" ('Heb je een uurwerk aan?') :p
The normal way of saying that is:
'Heb je een horloge om'

My, are you not familiar with 'oefenen'?? I think you 'oefen' Dutch all the time, or don't you? :p


Psyche
Sunday 16th of October 2005 07:16:00 AM
*GRRRRRR*

The closest word I could think of was "oefening"....but that is not good enough for me to rely on...oh, it means "practise", doesn`t it? :p

ve :p

By the way...it was funny, I`m on the whole clothing/colour section now and on one of the luisteroefening..en...(lol), one guy said, with a very convincing voice (and loud as hell)...JOLANDA IS SEXY...lmao, almost fell of my chair...I just...didn`t expect...*that*...:p :p :p

Thank you Tp :)

Edit: Nah...I don`t really practise much for the present being...*shame on me*...I`ll start again now :p


Mathieu
Sunday 16th of October 2005 07:32:47 AM
LOL :D I wonder what kind of tapes you got yourself :p In spite of it's grammatical simplicity it's not a phrase one is likely to find in little kids' books for example.. ;)
(*imagines this guy's pokerface while making that tape*)


Psyche
Sunday 16th of October 2005 07:49:00 AM
Yess...and I failed to mention the very loud "GOH!!" he managed to nearly shout out before that very sentence...:p

I know how to fake an "aa" now...I just say with a verrrry nasal voice :p Must do for now...:p



Zakk
Sunday 23rd of October 2005 11:54:41 PM
( Looks at everything that came before ) Oy!

Hey, I've been studying a little Low-German lately, mostly because I've got a Dutch friend who can only understand so much of my German insults, and I'd like to learn some better Dutch.
I think that I could probably just memorize everything instead of actually learning all of the details of this language, but then again it does differ somewhat to German no matter how alike they sound.

So, here's my main question: When does one use "jij" over "je"?

You use "jij" as the subject/nominative and "je" as the direct object/accusative and indirect object/dative.
Yet, also can't you use "je" with a verb? Doesn't symbolize some kind of subjunctive use? To some extent?

I hope you understand what I'm asking, because I sure in the hell don't : )


Psyche
Monday 24th of October 2005 05:35:46 AM
My God :p

I, who had settled with the explanation of using "jij" when you want to emphazise and "je" when you don`t...don`t tell me there are rules for this as well!! :p *so lost*

I don`t want to try to understand your question..this is just a bad dream....yes...I will just close my eyes...and when I open them...the two last posts will be gone...:p

(great that you post in here Zakk ;) It`s just that I am not fond of grammar :p)


Mathieu
Monday 24th of October 2005 08:02:29 PM
People, this has already been discussed a number of times.. Psyche don't worry! You were actually right. Zakk, "je" can be nominative and genitive just as well as accuastive and dative.
It's been around here a time or two, my most elaborate dissertation being [url=http://www.phrasebase.com/discuss/read.php?TID=4211&page=2]right here ;)
If there's something you still don't get about it, feel free to ask!! (either in this or that topic)


Rhayader
Monday 24th of October 2005 08:24:35 PM
my opinion: since cases in Dutch have more or less dissolved (save for a few very specific instances, mainly in proverbs and sayings) don't worry too much about that part of grammar. Listen to master Teup, just learn vocabulary and start speaking... the rest will fall into place.. also look at the website www.taalklas.nl (Dutch as a second language)


Psyche
Tuesday 25th of October 2005 12:33:16 AM
"you were *actually* right"...what is *that* supposed to mean exactly? :p ;)

Thank you guys!! *happy*

I have mentioned it before, but again, the song by Maribelle, "ik hou van jou", is absolutely beautiful!!! I found the lyrics on the net...and even though it is waaay to mushy, even for me (I can understand most of it I thiiiink) I would like to know the full and correct translation of it. So if anyone would be so super-sweet to do that for me, I would be forever grateful!!

Here goes...


Ik hou van jou
Alleen van jou
Ik kan niet leven in een wereld zonder jou

Waar ik ook ben
Ik hoor je stem
Ik kan je zomaar niet vergeten

Neem mij weer in je armen
Laat mij je hart verwarmen
Ik wil je alles geven
'k Hou zo veel van jou

Je hoort bij mij
Alleen bij mij
Dat zijn de woorden die je eens tegen me zei

'k Ben zo alleen
Waar moet ik heen
Waar is die tijd van toen gebleven

Ik hou van jou
Alleen van jou
Ik kan niet leven in een wereld zonder jou

Ik hou van jou


Thanks!!! :D


Psyche
Tuesday 25th of October 2005 02:47:16 AM
*Thanks Ax* *grrrrr* :p

I will give it a go myself...

I love you (yeah, yeah...)
Only you
I can`t live in a world without you

Where I am also (?)
I hear your voice (only guessing that because "stem" looks like the Norwegian "stemme=voice" :D)
I can`t zomaar(what is that?) forget you

Take me in...weer(?) your arms
Let me warm your heart(??!) (that line sounded like English...God, must get a dictionary :p)
I will give you everything
I love you so much (*yuck* :p)

You belong (?) to me
Only to me
That is the words...*don`t understand*

I am so alone (?) *sad*
Where...hmm..I...uh..
Where is the time...uh..

I love you (feeling sick)
Only you
I can`t live in a world without you


I LOVE YOU!!!


*runs to the bathroom* *throws up*

I love the song though. No. Ik hou van de/het...song? :D



Axystos
Tuesday 25th of October 2005 05:12:52 AM
Originally posted by Psyche


*Thanks Ax* *grrrrr* :p

I will give it a go myself...

I love you (yeah, yeah...)
Only you
I can`t live in a world without you

(1)Where I am also (?)
I hear your voice (only guessing that because "stem" looks like the Norwegian "stemme=voice" :D)(2)
I can`t zomaar(what is that?) forget you(3)

Take me in...weer(?) your arms(4)
Let me warm your heart(??!) (that line sounded like English...God, must get a dictionary :p)(5)
I will give you everything(6)
I love you so much (*yuck* :p)

You belong (?) to me(7)
Only to me
That is the words...*don`t understand*(8)

I am so alone (?) *sad*(7)
Where...hmm..I...uh..(9)
Where is the time...uh..(10)

I love you (feeling sick)
Only you
I can`t live in a world without you


I LOVE YOU!!!


*runs to the bathroom* *throws up*

I love the song though. No. Ik hou van de/het...song? :D(11)


1 - Wherever I am
2 - (well guessed :))
3 - zomaar = just, just like that
4 - again
5 - (that would indeed be a wise investment :P)
6 - I want to give you everything
7 - (correct)
8 - Those are the words you once said to me
9 - Where should I go?
10 - Where did those days go? (freely translated)
11 - het liedje ;)


Psyche
Tuesday 25th of October 2005 06:42:46 PM
Thank you Ax!! *hugs*

I see that other people go against their principles and translate LOVE-SONGS FROM EUROVISION (!!! *eeek*) behind my back and don`t help *me*...so den onde naboen is now my favourite Dutch :D

Ik hou van het liedje :D


Rhayader
Tuesday 25th of October 2005 08:06:38 PM
Nat,

there are of course other Dutch songs (even Eurovision:)) that are well worth your attention... for example "De Troubadour" by Lenny Kuhr (one of the winning songs in 1969)

De Troubadour

Hij zat zo boordevol muziek,
Hij zong voor groot en klein publiek,
Hij maakte blij, melancholiek, de troubadour.


Voor ridders in de hoge zaal
Zong hij in stoere sterke taal
En lang en bloederig verhaal, de troubadour.


Maar ook het werkvolk uit de schuur
Hoorde zijn lied vol avontuur,
Hoorde bij het nachtelijk vuur
De troubadour, de troubadour.


En in de herberg van de stad
Zong hij een drinklied op het vat
Voor wie nog staan kon en wie zat,
De troubadour, de troubadour. La, la, la...


Hij zong voor boeren op het land
Een kerelslied van eigen hand;
Hij was van elke rang en stand,
De troubadour, de troubadour.


Zo zong hij heel zijn leven lang
Zijn eigen lied, zijn eigen zang,
Toch gaat de dood gewoon zijn gang.
De troubadour, de troubadour.


Toen werd het stil, het lied was uit,
Enkel wat modder tot besluit,
Maar wie getroost werd door zijn lied,
Vergeet hem niet.


Want hij zat zo boordevol muziek,
Hij zong voor groot en klein publiek,
Hij maakte blij, melancholiek, de troubadour.
La, la, la...

Maybe not exactly a "love"-song... but since you're a Eurovision fan :) Enjoy!


Psyche
Tuesday 25th of October 2005 09:17:45 PM
*That* I knew...about the song and artist (didn`t remember the year though :D) I mean! I still thought that this was a German song!! Cool!!! Thanks!!! *hugs* *puts on CD* *sings off key*


Rhayader
Wednesday 26th of October 2005 01:39:28 PM
here are the links to a few other Dutch songs by Herman van Veen; great pronounciation and pretty good songs also :)
1: Liefde van Later
http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2L2SRLFSXHRNX1LBZWRYCIHNL0
2: Suzanne (a translation of the famous Leonard Cohen song)
http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1XIAG2BH9HJUR02Y1RX556GQXH
3: Ik ben vandaag zo vrolijk
http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3VU8MPTD7UYYJ2I7R3B17DWOJS
4: Opzij
http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0VNXO9AS8RH8K3JRVLDM06LNHO

Enjoy :)


Psyche
Wednesday 26th of October 2005 08:11:27 PM
Thanks Theo! I will listen to them as soon as I get new speakers! This will give me so much inspiration! Nothing beats music, and songs sung in foreign languages are the best...*hApPy*


Rhayader
Wednesday 26th of October 2005 09:21:57 PM
That makes me wonder how you listen to music now....




Rhayader
Tuesday 01st of November 2005 10:55:33 PM
another fun thing to test your knowledge of Dutch is to do a few quizes... follow this link and try :) Educational value is questionable.. but it's fun :)

http://iteslj.org/v/d/


Psyche
Wednesday 02nd of November 2005 01:25:50 AM
I will check them out!


AND!! Everyone seems to believe that the only way of listening to music is by using the computer. I never listen to music like that, unless I have songs there which I don`t have on a CD!!!


Mathieu
Friday 04th of November 2005 04:18:51 AM
All that being as it may, :p

Time for a new question! Bring it on... :D


Mathieu
Wednesday 09th of November 2005 02:01:07 AM
Come on then.. I'm not buying that you all understand everything there is to it already, or do you?? :p


Axystos
Wednesday 09th of November 2005 05:31:49 AM
Ja, en anders verwachten wij gewoon een opstel van 3 A4-tjes over hoe jullie dag vandaag was. :D


Daan
Thursday 10th of November 2005 12:38:10 AM
Drie maar? Mijn leraren zijn gemener.


Mathieu
Thursday 10th of November 2005 12:41:06 AM
Voor maar n dag is 3 wel genoeg... dus laten we zeggen dat het opstel over de hele week moet gaan ;)


Psyche
Thursday 10th of November 2005 02:03:28 AM
It is amazing...if I don`t keep control on you guys, you turn this thread to a Dutch "Let`s Count to 10 000".

If you ever pay attention to my signature line, you will find out that I...AM....NOT...HERE!!! :p

Repeat after me: NAT...IS.....HIER...NIET...

Or maybe even...NAT..IS...HIER...NIET.....

The point is that I am not here! No, I will *not* write a Dutch essay of three pages (*kicks Ax*), but I do have a Norwegian essay of three pages to write this week. Yes, our teacher is kind. That`s why we want to kill her.

And of course, I do know all the Dutch worth to know :D
I know how to order something in a restaurant (though I`ll be very tired of uitsmijters after a while), I know how to insult people (jij! Ja, jij! BOOSMONGOOL), AND I am capable of telling people dat ik heb een vriend who`s called Henk-Jan (GET A NAME, for crying out loud!!)

Maybe I`ll disgrace myself to come with a few questions next week....donc, when I AM HERE!!


Axystos
Thursday 10th of November 2005 07:56:56 PM
Natalie, dat Noorse opstel mag je ook wel naar mij opsturen. Dan geef ik er wel een cijfer voor. :D

Oh, en het komt overtuigender over als je iemand ook goed gespeld uitscheldt -> Bosmongool (waar heb je dat eigenlijk vandaan? van Teup?) :p




Psyche
Thursday 10th of November 2005 10:41:56 PM
I am afraid the essay will suck too bad *and* I must write it in nynorsk, so I don`t think you would benefit from it anyway Ax :p

Where I learn my insults? *innocent look*
A bit here, a bit there....and don`t worry, it is not politically correct to say "bosmongool", so I won`t use it in real life...I have other insults that comes to my mind though...I won`t talk about them :p And Tp? Teaching me insults? No. Indirectly, yes (if you stretch the truth very far), because Tp`s vader taught me one....:D :p


Mathieu
Friday 11th of November 2005 12:11:59 AM
Haha, in your dreams :p (literally ;))

boosmongool makes some distant sense.. could be an angry retarded person.. :D

Yeah, it's not me teaching all tht sort of stuff.. maybe you trying out your g's and r's on Dutch people got you introduced to words like that, if I'm to believe how bad your pronunciation would be ;)


Axystos
Friday 11th of November 2005 01:19:03 AM
Originally posted by Psyche


I am afraid the essay will suck too bad *and* I must write it in nynorsk, so I don`t think you would benefit from it anyway Ax :p

Ah, maar wat jij niet weet, is dat ik 2 maanden op vakantie ben geweest in Nynorsk-gebied, dus kom maar op met je opstel. :D


Eli
Monday 14th of November 2005 07:35:27 PM
Hello to everyone!
I have a question. Maybe someone will be able to help me. As I saw in Dutch you can use negetive form in two ways: with "geen" and "niet". What is the difference? When I should use the first one and when the second one?
Thanks!:)


Rhayader
Monday 14th of November 2005 08:29:50 PM
the difference between "geen" and "niet" is easily explained looking at following examples:

a ik houd niet van bier
b ik lust geen bier
c ik lust geen oranje bier

NIET belongs to the verb or the entire sentence, in this case "houden van"
GEEN only belongs to the noun or adjective, so in case b belongs to "bier" and in case c belongs to "oranje"

This is just the very basic explanation, i hope it is useful.



Mathieu
Monday 14th of November 2005 09:48:48 PM
Fine explanation :) Now as for actual usage, I'd like to add that there have been discussions about this before, and that I'm too lazy to look them up so I suggest you go find them (perhaps in the Dutch Grammar topic), you can think of "geen" as "no" as in "I have no car", and when it is possible to have such a construction in English, like here (turn "I don't have a car" into "I have no car" or "I don't have no car"), then you can be pretty sure you'll get the "geen" construction in Dutch (only difference is then that it is obligatory in Dutch). Another guy mentioned that "geen" applies to indefinite nouns or something, but you'll need to look that up if you're wondering. So at least there are several tactics for this probably.

So, if you wanna say "I don't speak Dutch", you go and think of "I speak no Dutch" or "I don't speak no Dutch", and as you realize that is possible, or at least sort of OK, then you know that in Dutch it is "Ik spreek geen Nederlands" and not *"Ik spreek niet Nederlands"


Rhayader
Monday 14th of November 2005 10:55:20 PM
as always... brilliant :)


Psyche
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 01:40:49 AM
What a cute explanation!

I, who sometimes make up fake conversations in my head in Dutch or whatever language I practise (*blushing icon*), always said "ik spreek niet Nederlands". Now I know better!

And yeah....I`m back!! :D :D


Mathieu
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 02:22:25 AM
wb :D
Ik verheug me al op een lading nieuwe random vragen :)


Eli
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 03:17:34 AM
Thanks for explanations!
I am not sure that I understood everything, but I guess it will be much more comprehensible after practicing.


Mathieu
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 06:09:00 AM
Yeah, that's the usual reaction when I try to explain something ;) Yep I'd say try it out, if there's still anything you don't get please don't hesitate to ask.. you won't be the only one, I'll just explain it again, for as far as I can think of rules myself :p


Psyche
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 06:13:09 AM
Aisha told me (yes, this is as random as it gets :p) that "zoenen" means more than to simply be "kissing". True? In my book it says that Maarten and Bart "is samen zoenen"...mmm..I need to know the exact translation :D


Mathieu
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 06:22:15 AM
hmm I don't think "is samen zoenen" is a correct phrase in any context, but I could be wrong.. anyways, it's pretty hard to tell really, both 'zoenen' and 'kussen' refer to, well, to kiss, nothing else :) I don't really know if there's a difference between them at all..
Notice at least that these two things are possible, like in English:

Maarten geeft Bart een zoen/kus ("to give (indirect object) a kiss")
Maarten kust/zoent Bart ("to kiss (direct object)")

The latter is more intimate. But I don't dare to claim there is a difference between 'zoenen' and 'kussen', maybe another native does :D (maybe 'zoenen' is a tad more formal, but not more/less intimate)


Psyche
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 06:35:47 AM
Okay, not sure why she said "zoenen" meant like making out or something...:p Whatever :D

This is the story (chapter 5 :D)

Claire is verliefd op Jack.
Echt? Maar hij is niet verliefd op.....Hij is volgens....(me) gek op Anita.
Maar Anita gaat tock met Bart?
Nee hoor. Bart is gek op Maarten. En Maarten ook op...
Echt?
Ja, ik zag...samen zoenen.

It says that this conversation actually took place :p

Anyways..."nee hoor" sounds like "nei, hr!". Does it have the same meaning?


Mathieu
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 06:55:14 AM
Hehe, you have a weakness for gays or something, don't you :p the phrase is "Ik zag ze samen zoenen" ("I saw them kissing"), that doesn't require any further explanation I guess, it's obvious that "them kissing (each other, together, etc)" is more intimate than just the one kissing the other ;)

Hmm, "nee hoor"? Are you asking Axystos now? :p Hmm anyways, 'hoor' in this context is most probably used to put some extra force in your statement. Like "oh, no", "nothing of the sort".. (stress is on "nee"). It has a feel to it like "that's what you think, but I know that's not how it really is". A different usage of 'hoor' is making it more polite; "nee hoor (bedankt)" as in "no, it's OK (thanks)". Those are the two general usages of that 'hoor' at the end. (English folks will love this as it'll allow them to call people "whore" and come off polite at the same time ;))


Psyche
Tuesday 15th of November 2005 07:08:19 AM
Weakness for gays? Well, as the leader AND founder of the Lesbians Hate Men Club (LHMC), I feel that I must be settling a good example for my members. Care to join anyone? :p Also, I have two free memberships to my church. Skalla-Dude is the one and true God ya know. You get as many chocolate-chip koekjes as you want if you sign up.

"Nee hoor" is the same as "Nei hr" then :) Only that the Norwegian equivalence means that the person who`s saying it knows the story straight and is going to tell you the true version of it ;)

And...I copied the story straight from the book ya know ;)


Eli
Wednesday 16th of November 2005 04:26:13 AM
Hi, I have a question.
As I understand, in dutch, to explain continuous form you can use in "zein + aan het + infinitive" form or in "hangen | liggen | lopen staan | zitten + te + infinitive" form.
Is it the same?
thanks!





Mathieu
Wednesday 16th of November 2005 04:50:33 AM
What you mean is things like this:

"Ik ben aan het werken" - "I'm working"
"Ik zit te werken" - "I'm working"

The latter is more like, as you'd probably expect like "I sit and work".. here's another

"Hij is aan het klagen" - "He's complaining"
"Hij loopt te klagen" - "He's complaining"

The latter is more like "He's hanging around complaining" (they are a bit in between these meanings). 'lopen' somehow goes well with that verb, 'zitten' well with work, partly has to do with where you are / what you do while you're at it (working, complaining, etc), partly it's just what has gotten customary. I'd say you just keep on getting Dutch input and you'll get yourself some intuition on what fits nicely where, there are no rules to it.
All in all, the meaning isn't dramatically different.
Here are a bunch

"Hij ligt te slapen" - "He's sleeping, he's lying there sleeping"
"Hij zit te slapen" - "He's sleeping (in his chair), he's sitting there sleeping"
"Hij staat te praten" - "He's talking, he's standing over there talking"
"Hij loopt te zoeken" - "He's searching, he's walking around searching"

Apart from these things, it's for the continuous form also very common to just put a present tense verb.

Ik leer Nederlands - I'm learning Dutch

You could say "Ik ben Nederlands aan het leren" or "Ik zit Nederlands te leren" if you really want to stress the continuous aspect of it, but as for this phrase just present tense is fine.

"Ik probeer [na te denken]" - "I'm trying [to think]"
"Hij slaapt" - "He is sleeping"
"Ik kleed me om" - "I'm changing (clothes)"
"Ik antwoord niet op de vraag, Ik geef geen antwoord op die vraag" - "I'm not answering that question"
"Ik heb problemen" - "I'm having problems"
"Ik sterf van de honger" - "I'm starving"

As you can see, in these cases just a present tense verb will do. So there are 3, the "zijn .. aan het ..", "liggen/lopen/staan/zitten ... te ...", and just present tense. I can't really give a definite answer as to when you should use which, I think tense usage is pretty much the hardest part of learning a language, it'll be best if it just comes with experience.


Eli
Wednesday 16th of November 2005 05:59:52 AM
Hi,Teup!
Thank you very much for you answer. I really appreciate it! If you have some question in hebrew or russian or...physics:) you can ask me!
From you answer I have again two questions (for the next one I will have 4:))
1. If you relly want to stress continuous form you use "aan het" or "te.." form. When you, as native speaker of the language, use each of them? Or,maybe, if they are the same you could choose just one of the forms and to use it always? Do you really "feel" that here you should use "aan het" and there you should use "te.."?
2. You wrote "Ik antwoord niet op de vraag, Ik geef geen antwoord op die vraag"
What is this "geef" in the second form? Why it goes with "geen" and not "niet" and why you have written "de" in the first sentence and "die" in the second.
As I know, the first one meens "the" and the second one "that". Maybe it is somthing to do with this "geef"?
Thanks again!



Mathieu
Wednesday 16th of November 2005 06:42:11 AM
1. to stress, in the basic situation I'd go for "... aan het ..." if I were you. In the "loopt/zit/etc. ... te ...", you add some extra info (like that someone is sitting while doing it), that one is a bit more advanced I'd say, and to avoid picking the wrong extra info, just be safe and go for "... aan het ...", unless you can recall you've seen that other one for that case (like with "werken", you now know that people can say "hij zit te werken" (though "hij is aan het werken" is also still fine, of course)). I think you could survive in Dutch without "lopen/zitten/liggen/etc. te ..." entirely, although it'd be more fun if you could use it from time to time of course, eventually :)
(in case you're wondering where the vocal stress is placed when pronouncing, it's always on that main verb, like "werken", never on "aan" or "het" or "te" or that other verb before "te")


2. Literally:

"Ik antwoord niet op die vraag"
"I answer not on that question"

"Ik geef geen antwoord op die vraag"
"I give no answer to that question"

Sorry, my mistake; I meant "die" ("that") in both cases. The tricky thing here is that in the one case we have the verb "to answer" and in the other situation "answer" is the noun, and "give" is the verb. Like in English.
Now you might be wondering why this isn't good:

*"Ik geef niet een antwoord op die vraag"
"I give not an answer to that question"

But since Dutch favours that "no" construction when possible in English, it won't be a surprise that in this case as well it is the only thing possible (since, like I said, if you can get the "no" ("geen") construction in English, you're forced to do so in Dutch). An additional trick for this case for remembering this is that "niet" and "een" don't bear each other's presence well when standing next to each other, and you should swap that for "geen" (so; it's a part of those cases in which the "no" construction is possible and thus where you'll get the "geen" construction in Dutch).

If you happen to have 4 questions, just bring em on :D As long as you try to learn from it I'm satisfied :)


Esta
Wednesday 16th of November 2005 10:28:51 PM
i have a question now too. it's pretty daft ;) loads of time i have writen a scentence and been told that it needs a 'het' in it somewhere. when and where do you use a 'het' (I don't mean using it for 'it':))
AND teup, you might think that english is lacking in some things but 9 out of 10 times i reckon that a dutch sentence is longer than our english equivilent. But then i am told that i only speak easy town dutch:(:p so maybe that's why;):D


Mathieu
Thursday 17th of November 2005 12:53:25 AM
Oh but I just love long sentences :p Hmm I'll do a little research from now on as to which is longer; the Dutch or the English descriptions on foods, manuals, etc ;) But I think you'll be right. But on the other hand, Dutch sentences can be paraphrased in many more ways than English ones can, it's easier to incorporate very subtle side meaning or extra info in it, which usually is either lost on translating it into English, or requires a whole extra sentence if you want to keep it more 1 on 1 (words like "wel", "soms", "toch", "maar", "even", are usually deleted in English translations). To me every specific choice for every word has a different feel to it, but yeah, as for straightforward utility, English is perhaps slightly better then :D

Hmm, about the 'het' thing, I have no idea what you're on about really :D 'het' can be a determiner, meaning 'the'. Can you give an example sentence which lacks one, or just one of which you suspect you might get that comment?


Psyche
Thursday 08th of December 2005 02:55:00 AM
Time for some geek-ish pronunciation questions again :D

It appears to me that the "g" is pronounced like an English "g" (G in get") when it it comes in this form "ing". Like in "Groningen? :p

There were one more question...but I forgot :p


Mathieu
Thursday 08th of December 2005 05:04:12 AM
Originally posted by Psyche


Time for some geek-ish pronunciation questions again :D

It appears to me that the "g" is pronounced like an English "g" (G in get") when it it comes in this form "ing". Like in "Groningen? :p

There were one more question...but I forgot :p

Nope. There's only the "ng" sound. In words like "Groningen", or, for convenience's sake, "hengel", which officially divides into syllables like this:

hen - gel

you still get a single nasal "ng"-ish sound, without any extra "g" to it like you'd expect if it were English.

Keep em coming, keep em coming :D


Psyche
Thursday 08th of December 2005 06:31:41 AM
Nope? I was 3/4 correct! :p (thanks though! ;))

I just have to read your other posts about negation now...that doesn`t really make sense to me. Not the placement of "niet" either which seems to vary. I will lurk around, I am sure I will find the answer :)


Mathieu
Thursday 08th of December 2005 08:23:34 PM
I think negation in Dutch is pretty hard. Too add yet another way of explaining things :p; sentences often don't deny something, they confirm the opposite is the case:

Ik heb niet [een auto] (wrong!) - I do not have [a car]
Ik heb [geen auto] (right!) - I have [no car]

If you mention what it is exactly that you don't get about it (niet vs geen? word order?) or about my previous explanations, I'll explain it a little more in detail. Again; to me explaining is no prob at all, after all you're the one that's supposed to learn from to it, not me, so you decide what/how much you want to have explained :p

Edit: apart from "niet" and "geen", there's also "nergens" for negations - just mentioning it, just in case that's the one that's bothering you..


Psyche
Friday 09th of December 2005 06:05:41 AM
*sigh*

What the mother`s priest of a father is nergens? I bet that the Dutch government just made that up to make it even harder for me to learn :p


Mathieu
Friday 09th of December 2005 07:00:17 AM
Aha.. I see I'm only making things worse :D Well, to give a sneak of that;

Waar wacht je op? - What (lit: where) are you waiting for?
Ik wacht nergens op - I'm not waiting for anything (lit: I wait on nowhere)

Yeah, it's weird, I know.. :p by the time you're getting trouble with it, ask, because right now I'm not sure if/how it'll be dissing ya ;)


Psyche
Saturday 10th of December 2005 03:45:36 AM
Mmm....great :p

Didn`t get it at all (yet)...I will ask when and if I master the niet/geen issue :)

Thanks!


Rhayader
Monday 26th of December 2005 08:20:19 AM
FLAPPIE: copy / paste following link to obtain mp3 file...

http://s54.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=36AVNXFF4MBMA3R4V2X6NDMHD6

Flappie

Het was kerstochtend 1961, ik weet het nog zo goed
Mijn konijnenhok was leeg
En moeder zei dat ik niet in de schuur mocht komen
En als ik lief ging spelen
Dat ik dan wat lekkers kreeg
Zij wist ook niet waar Flappie uit kon hangen
Ze zou het papa vragen, maar omdat hij bezig was
In het fietsenschuurtje, moest ik maar een uurtje
Goed naar Flappie zoeken, hij liep vast wel ergens op het gras

refr.
Maar ik had het hok toch goed dichtgedaan
Zoals ik dat elke avond deed
Ik was de vorige avond zelfs nog teruggegaan
Ik weet ook niet waarom ik dat deed
Ik had heel lang voor het hok gestaan
Alsof ik wist wat ik nu weet

Het was eerste kerstdag 1961, wij naar Flappie zoeken
Vader, die zocht gewoon mee
Bij de bomen en het water, maar niet in dat fietsenschuurtje
Want daar kon 'ie toch niet zitten en ik schudde nee
We zochten samen, samen tot de koffie, de familie aan de koffie
Maar ik hoefde niet
Ik dacht aan Flappie en dat het 's nachts heel koud kon vriezen
Mijn hoofdje stil gebogen, dikke tranen van verdriet

refr.

Het was eerste kerstdag 1961, er werd luidruchtig gegeten
Maar dat deed me niet zoveel
Ik dacht aan Flappie, mijn eigen kleine Flappie
Waar zou 'ie lopen, geen hap ging door mijn keel
Toen na de soep het hoofdgerecht zou komen
Sprak mij vader uiterst grappig: "kijk Youp daar is Flappie dan"
Ik zie de zilveren schaal nog en daar lag hij in drie stukken
Voor het eerst zag ik mijn vader als een vreselijke man

Ik ben gillend en stampend naar bed gegaan
Heb eerst een uur liggen huilen op de sprei
Nog een keer scheldend boven aan de trap gestaan
En geschreeuwd "Flappie was van mij"
Ik heb heel lang voor het raam gestaan
Maar het hok stond er maar verlaten bij

Het was tweede kerstdag 1961, moeder weet dat nog zo goed
Vaders bed was leeg
En ik zei dat zij niet in de schuur mocht komen
En als ze lief ging spelen
Dat ze dan wat lekkers kreeg

(Tekst en muziek: Youp van 't Hek)


Psyche
Monday 26th of December 2005 08:34:43 AM
Gosh...

I probably didn`t understand more than 5 % of the text..but the melody and all...I was close to crying! (yeah, I am pathetic :p).

The only thing I understood was that it was the first day of Christmas 1961...mm..Flappie...sounds like a dog`s name..but probably a person? Not sure if someone died, maybe not :p The teller is not allowed to go in the..."schuur" (if it is the same as the Norwegian "skur")...don`t know why. And, "if I only knew what I know now", sounds important.

Beautiful, sad song :) If I only knew what it all meant, I am sure I`d have a better understanding of it.

Thank you so much, Theo *hugs*

Ps: When only listening, I realized that Dutch can be a beautiful language.


Pps: I will try to translate the song tomorrow, just as you know :p


Psyche
Monday 26th of December 2005 10:40:18 PM
*translation under construction* :p

This is not a literal translation..many places I just changed it into what I meant sounded better :p I also think it is hard because it always changes between past and present tense!



It was Christmas Eve (christmas evening) 1961, I know it just too well, my rabbit pen was empty and my mother say that I must not go to the shed.
And I would still like to go playing and
afterwards I got sweets.
She doesn`t know either where Flappie hangs out.
She will ask dad about it, but because he was busy in the bike shed, I must only (wait?) an hour. Good (:S)when Flappie search for, he goes regularly in the grass.

God...it is too hard!! I don`t get it...it is bound to get more literal now

Ref:
But I had, I think, the pen good like I do every night, I was last night even once again returned- I also do not know where he there put. I had long stood by the pen. As if I`d known, what I know now.


THIS SUCKS, BUT I WILL BE BACK AND WRITE MORE!


Mathieu
Tuesday 27th of December 2005 02:09:39 AM
Classic :D Bit overplayed, but still fun :)

I'll just do the part you did, if you have any questions about that, ask, otherwise, go on translating :)

It was christmas morning 1961, I can remember it so well
My rabbit pen was empty
And mother said that I couldn't go to the shed
And that if I'd go play and be good
That I'd get some sweets

She also didn't know where Flappie could be hanging out
She would ask dad about it, but because he was busy
In the bike shed, I had to go-
search thorougly for Flappie -for an hour, he would surely be walking on the field somewhere

chor.
But I did close the pen well, didn't I?
Just like I used to do every night
I even returned the evening before it
I also don't really know why I did that
I've been standing in front of the pen real long
As if I knew what I know now.


Psyche
Tuesday 27th of December 2005 03:23:28 AM
Thank you! It is easier to understand, than to start translating it! "Goed" seems to stand everywhere and never make sense...and "weet" also means "remember"? Cool :)


Daan
Tuesday 27th of December 2005 03:40:04 AM
Nog weten = still know = remember ;)


Rhayader
Tuesday 27th of December 2005 06:54:52 AM
Flappie (the cheat file): Flappie (name of the pet-rabbit)

It was the morning of christmas 1961, I remember it so well
My rabbit pen was empty
And mother said that I couldn't go into the shed
And that if I'd go play and be good
That I'd get some sweets

She also didn't know where Flappie could be hanging out
She would ask dad about it, but because he was busy
In the bike shed, I had to go-
search thorougly for Flappie -for an hour, he would surely be walking on the field somewhere

chor.
But I did close the pen well, didn't I?
Just like I used to do every night
I even returned the evening before it
I also don't really know why I did that
I've been standing in front of the pen real long
As if I knew what I know now.

It was the first day of Christmas 1961, we were searching for Flappie
Father, he just joined the search (lit: he just searched along)
Near the trees and the water, but not in the bicycleshed
Because he couldnt be there anyway and I nodded no
We searched together, together until coffee, the family at the coffee
But I didnt want any
I thought about Flappie and that it could freeze very cold at night
My head bowed in silence, crying bitterly of grief

(chorus)

It was the first day of Christmas 1961, the meal commenced noisy
But it didnt mean much to me
I was thinking about Flappie, my own little Flappie
Where would he be walking? I couldnt swallow a bite.
When after the soup the main course would arrive
My father said very funny: look Youp, here is Flappie
I can still see the silver platter and there he was in three pieces
For the first time I looked upon my father as a horrible man.

I went to bed screaming and stamping
Laid there crying for an hour on my bedspread
Stood at the top of the stairs swearing one time
And yelled Flappie was mine!
I stood in front of the window for a very long time
But the pen just looked deserted

It was the second day of Christmas 1961, mother remembers that so well
Fathers bed was empty
And i told her not to go inside the shed
And if shed go play and be good
She would get some sweets

(thx Teup for the first part)


Eli
Friday 30th of December 2005 05:15:31 AM
I have a question.

I have read in some place that "hen" is used for direct object and "hun" for inderect.
Then I saw in the topic about pronounce that both of them are for direct object. What is correct?

Then I have the following sentence:"Wij verwachtten hen". It is written that "hen" is used since it's a direct object. I ask that since in my native language "hen" here is inderect object.

I am so so confused :(
Thanks in advance!


Mathieu
Friday 30th of December 2005 06:16:08 AM
Hehe, I can solve that confusion in a very simple way for you:

Hen and hun are both good anywhere :p

Some grammar people once made up that we should use 'hen' for the one and 'hun' for the other; basically because they thought it'd be cool to have a seperate pronoun for that, but the Dutch people don't use it and most don't even know which one was supposed to be which. Some sources may still be claiming that "officially" it should be this and that, but don't bother - just use "hun". I hardly ever use "hen", only when I feel like it for some whimsical reason.

(Some people also use "hun" for nominative (subject), but that is still considered to be incorrect.)


Rhayader
Friday 30th of December 2005 08:14:51 PM
“Hun” or “Hen”: (This is what the 'Grammar People'say about it, added just for sake of completeness)

It is not suprising that many users of language have trouble making the distinction between HUN and HEN, for this distinction is artificial. In written Dutch the distinction is made based on the following three rules:

1: write HUN when it is an indirect object (3rd case) (without preposition)
2: write HEN when it is a direct object (4th case)
3: write HEN after a preposition

Examples:

- De actievoerder overhandigde hun de handtekeningen. (rule nr. 1)
- De actievoerder overhandigde aan hen de handtekeningen. (rule nr. 3)
- Dat hebt u hen niet horen zeggen. (rule nr. 2)
- Zijn hun nog andere zaken opgevallen? (rule nr. 1)
- De minister diende hen van repliek. (rule nr. 2)
- Voor hen die vielen. (rule nr. 3)

Fear for the wrongful use of HUN sometimes leads to the use of HUN where HEN should have been used. Sometimes even the dictionaries are not unanimous about the cases belonging to certain verbs, and then the question whether we are dealing with an indirect object (3rd case) or a direct object (4th case) can not be answered. Usually however HEN sounds too book-ish and stiff. In many cases it is better to use ZE or DIE, or a description:

- Ik vraag het hun (ZE) wel even.
- Ik heb hen (ZE) niet gezien.
- Geef de boeken maar aan hen (AAN DIE MENSEN).

(source: Jan Renkema / Schrijfwijzer Compact ISBN 90 12 10826 8)




Mathieu
Friday 30th of December 2005 08:23:21 PM
Thanks for posting :)

Hmm, now that you mention the "ze" thing, it seems that when "them" (whether direct or indirect object) refers to things rather than people, "ze" is used. Otherwise it's often "hen/hun" or in some cases, like the ones you posted, "ze" is used for people as well. All in all, I'm pretty sure that "hen/hun" can't refer to objects, just to people. "Ze" can be both.

(note that "ze" is normally a nominative (subject) pronoun meaning "they" and "she")


Eli
Sunday 01st of January 2006 07:50:56 AM
Thanks for both of you!
And
Happy new year!


Eli
Saturday 07th of January 2006 02:21:43 AM
Hi everybody!
I have the following question:
De bal werd over het hek heen gegooid - The ball was thrown over the fence.

In the translation I can see the word "was" which should be the same in Dutch. Instead of this, the word "werd" is used.
Why is it so? What is "werd" anyway?

Thank you!


Mathieu
Saturday 07th of January 2006 03:41:50 AM
"werd" is the singular past tense of "worden".

In this case, "werd" most closely resembles "was being". "worden" is a verb like "to be" or "to become"; it indicates a passive sentence in which the subject is undergoing an action. I think that's the best decription I can give. So, "is being" would often be used in English as a counterpart for that, but "worden" also corresponds to other English verbs in some contexts, like "to become". It's a hard verb, best to just read data and let it settle.


Eli
Sunday 08th of January 2006 07:25:37 AM
Inversion of Subject and Verb.
Why in the following sentence there is an inversion:
Vandaag kookt hij aardappelen en groente.

Thanks!!





Mathieu
Monday 09th of January 2006 01:53:08 AM
The verb is always either the first or the second bit of the sentence. So if the first part is occupied by an adverbial phrase, like 'vandaag', you get the verb second because it's too impatient to keep waiting :). The phrase that causes the verb to come after it immediately can be anything, from 'vandaag' to 'daarna' to 'omdat ik morgen vrij ben'..


Eli
Monday 09th of January 2006 07:15:56 AM
Thanks! You explained it very well!
But I have another question (that what happens when you decide to study seriously :))
Look at the following sentence:"Ik heb het erg druk".
One can translate it like:"I am very busy". But what this "het" is about?

Here:"Geeft u mij maar een wit brood en een bruin brood", why we use "maar", which means "but"?

Thanks!


Mathieu
Monday 09th of January 2006 06:50:36 PM
Ah, you found one of those 'het's which were mentioned earlier on but I couldn't think of any :) To start with, it means 'it' rather than 'the' here, so literally:
"I have it busy". This construction happens with other things as well:
"Ik heb het druk" - "I'm busy" (I have alot to do)
"Ik heb het koud" - "I am cold" (I feel cold)
"Ik heb het heet" - "I am hot" (I feel hot)
"Ik heb het goed" - "I'm good" (I'm in good circumstances)
Versus these ones:
"Ik ben druk" - "I am busy" (I'm a busy, restless person)
"Ik ben koud" - "I am cold" (I am cold hearted)
"Ik ben heet" - "I am hot" (I am sexy :p)
"Ik ben goed" - "I'm good" (I'm a good guy)

So, the "it" sort of points out that "your circumstances" are that way, and not you yourself. It mainly applies to the ones I mentioned I think, because when you go think of other ones like "I am drunk", you do just say "Ik ben dronken" and never "Ik heb het dronken" because here you're not talking about the circumstances you find yourself in, but just about yourself - you are drunk :). So it's often just like that, without any 'het's to make it indirect; just with some specific ones when you really refer to your environment it comes in.

About the "maar".. in such phrases, it means something like "just". It's always slightly difficult to explain this meaning, but first of all, it is one completely separate from "but" - it has nothing to do with "but", it just looks the same for some reason :)
It's always best to explain what this second meaning is by pointing out the difference in meaning:

"Ik ga naar de stad" - "I'm going to the city"
"Ik ga maar naar de stad" - "I guess I'll just go to the city" (e.g. I don't know what else to do)

It makes the sentence less definite, less decided, less bossy. So, as for your sentence, it's mainly to make it sound less bossy:
"Geeft u mij een brood" - "Give me a bread!"
"Geeft u mij maar een brood" - "I'll have a bread, please"

So, this "maar" combined with an imperative construction makes it polite. The sentence turns from a 'direct order' into some sort of question.

(I think it's also useful to know it often appears like this: "alleen maar". "Ik wil alleen maar naar de stad". Then it means "I only/just want to go to the city (and nothing else)")


Eli
Saturday 18th of February 2006 09:19:23 PM
Hi,
I have a couple of questions:
1. What is the difference between "bellen" and "opbellen"?
2. What is the difference between "varen" and "zien"?




Mathieu
Saturday 18th of February 2006 11:49:23 PM
1. Basically it's the same as "ring" versus "ring up", I think - in every respect. Note that "bellen" can be intransitive if needed, whereas "opbellen" always takes an object.
2. Hmm, little similarity in fact :p "varen" is a naval version of "rijden" ("to drive/ride") and "vliegen" ("to fly"), "zien" means "to see".


Eli
Sunday 19th of February 2006 02:13:09 AM
Originally posted by Teup
2. Hmm, little similarity in fact :p "varen" is a naval version of "rijden" ("to drive/ride") and "vliegen" ("to fly"), "zien" means "to see".

:p....It was stupid. I don't know, I bought some programme to study Dutch that is very nice, with flip-flop cards English-Dutch. It is written their "varen"="to see".
You know what....let me see it again if it is Dutch. :p

The problem is that could't find dictionary Dutch-English and vice versa here, in Israel. Dutch here is not popular at all. Not like Spanish, for example.

But next week I have a business trip to Belgium and I hope to buy one!

Thanks for your help!


ChIlLeE
Friday 24th of February 2006 09:11:20 AM
question:

I am new to dutch (kind of) and was wondering how to pronounce 'aa' like in 'gaan' (right now thats the first word that comes to mind.) I always thought it would be said like 'gI-an' (long i sound) or just 'gan' so please help me on this!

~Chillee

oh and also jsut making sure J is pronounced as Y, I know alot of written dutch but not so much as spoken.


Mathieu
Friday 24th of February 2006 09:28:54 PM
here's an audio file:
http://homepage.mac.com/schuffelen/dupron/dp5.MP3
(from website http://homepage.mac.com/schuffelen/dupron.html (they say there that it is the 'a' in 'father', that is not true)

It's a vowel that doesn't exist in English, I can only give some guildelines:
- It's long (duration)
- It's very low and open
- It is not a diphthong (it's a steady vowel that doesn't undergo a change in sound between beginning and end)

Yeah, the 'j' is pronounced like the 'y' in 'yes'.

(Note however that the clusters 'sj' and 'tj' are pronounced like 'sh' and 'tsh, respectively - never with a 'y'ish sound)


Psyche
Saturday 25th of March 2006 06:57:40 PM
Would it be possible for you to write down a few common, Dutch idioms? :)


Mathieu
Sunday 26th of March 2006 08:57:20 PM
Laat daar nou nt al een draadje over bestaan :D Die vind je [url=http://www.phrasebase.com/discuss/read.php?TID=11438]hier

Als je zelf nog anderen vindt, ook daar posten graag (ook als je ze niet begrijpt) :)


Eli
Saturday 01st of April 2006 06:15:28 AM
Ik heb een vraag: Hoe zegt je "dumbbell" in het Nederlands?




Mathieu
Saturday 01st of April 2006 04:28:56 PM
:) Domoor, ([dOm.O:r]), dombo ([dOm.bo]), sukkel ([sU.k@L]), oen ([un])..


Eli
Saturday 01st of April 2006 05:22:33 PM
Hmm.....I didn't mean "dumbbell" in this way :) (But it's useful too)
I meant the one you practice in the fytness gym with.

TX


Mathieu
Saturday 01st of April 2006 06:01:38 PM
This was the only one my dictionary had.. I guess you'll have to wait for someone with a better dictionary :p


Daan
Sunday 02nd of April 2006 04:13:23 AM
Een vriend (die nogal vaak naar de sportschool gaat) zegt dat we hetzelfde woord ervoor gebruiken. We hebben het woord gewoon van jullie gestolen ;)


Eli
Tuesday 02nd of May 2006 01:24:51 AM
Thanks for previous answer!
I have another question:
I see a lot that native speakers write "ff".
What does it mean?


Bereza
Tuesday 02nd of May 2006 02:20:06 AM
Lekker, I mean that 'ff' keeps itself thanks of words of foreign origin.

officier > officer
suffix > suffix
But how explain this phrase 'Ben je helemaal geschuffeld!', I don't know. What this means in English?

Lekker let me ask you, can you read any Dutch text fluently?

:)




Eli
Tuesday 02nd of May 2006 05:00:50 AM
Originally posted by Bereza


Lekker, I mean that 'ff' keeps itself thanks of words of foreign origin.

officier > officer
suffix > suffix
But how explain this phrase 'Ben je helemaal geschuffeld!', I don't know. What this means in English?

Lekker let me ask you, can you read any Dutch text fluently?

:)



:p
I didn't mean "ff" as letters in the word, but "ff" as a word. I guess it must be slang.

To be honest.....I read almost fluently, but still without understanding lot of words.


Bereza
Tuesday 02nd of May 2006 10:32:11 PM
That Lekker I have a little my question. At the moment I am studying the rules or reading of the Dutch words.

For example how read them right (you may write the transcription in Russian)

Можно здесь сесть у окна?
Mogen wij zitten bij het raam?
[Мохэн вяй зитен бяй хэт рам?)

In one book that is written that 'ij' is pronoused as 'эй', or maybe these 'ij' with 'w' and 'b' will be pronounced as 'вяй' and 'бяй'?

У вас нет ничего другого?
Heeft u misschien anders?
(Хэйфт у мисхин итс андэрс?)

How pronounce 'u' right: 'у' or 'ю' ?

Это мой кот.
Dit is mijn kattekop.
(Дит из майн катэкоп.)

Is this correct 'mijn' > [майн]?

What you may tell about my remarks?


:)
At last, Lekker, thank you for your good humor ......


Mathieu
Tuesday 02nd of May 2006 11:57:53 PM
Originally posted by lekker


Originally posted by Bereza


Lekker, I mean that 'ff' keeps itself thanks of words of foreign origin.

officier > officer
suffix > suffix
But how explain this phrase 'Ben je helemaal geschuffeld!', I don't know. What this means in English?

Lekker let me ask you, can you read any Dutch text fluently?

:)



:p
I didn't mean \"ff\" as letters in the word, but \"ff\" as a word. I guess it must be slang.

To be honest.....I read almost fluently, but still without understanding lot of words.


"ff" is short for "effe" or "even". Good question, I'll post a thread on internet slang soon, it'll be useful :)

What's up with the < ff > sequences in words? It's a perfectly normal thing to encounter in Dutch, it's not about foreign origin. Vowels at syllable ends are pronounced differently from when the syllable is closed (ie. consonant at the end); and to prevent a vowel from turning long in a word, like the infinitive of "blaf" (to bark) by adding the "-en" suffix; you consequently get "blaffen" and not "blafen", since that would be pronounced as if it were "blaa - fen". But I'm sure I'm telling nothing new here :)


Eli
Thursday 04th of May 2006 02:27:27 AM
To Bereza:
First of all the sound "ij" sounds always as "'эй'"
I suugest you to read about diphthongs in Dutch here:
http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/spellingandpronunciation/2c.html
(and to hear the pronunciation).
It is a really nice site, where one can find an answer to almost any question.
Enjoy! :)



Mathieu
Thursday 04th of May 2006 11:11:58 PM
Hmm, there is quite a number of statements on the "diphthongs" (most of them aren't diphthongs [or indeed anything that comes close to it], 2 diphthings have not been linsted, and the things that come closer to diphthongs like "ooi", "oei", "ieuw", "eeuw" etc. aren't mentioned either) that I don't agree with (or, are just wrong, basically :)). The site might be helpful, but only if don't assume what they say to be automatically true and when you use it as a 'one of many' source. Always test info you get for yourself, if you don't agree with what they teach you, don't think it's just you - usually it's them who are wrong ;)


Bereza
Friday 05th of May 2006 12:22:19 AM
Teup, you are right that you here noted, so I also had surprised reading about that one word, for example 'wij' at one site 'ij' is must be pronounced as [ay], in other [əi], in third - [ёi], in fourth - [εi], in fifth [i]. So at last I ask you what is correct!

:)


Mathieu
Friday 05th of May 2006 01:36:21 AM
Good question :) Traditionally, [εi] will be used in transcriptions. However, [i] is actually the correct pronunciation! (And, if anything, it would give you more social status :D)
It's exactly that if you ask me, and it is also what foreigners are generally taught in classes. To go from to i.

[ay] is.. destructive.. I can't believe they teach people that, that is so wrong. So good you asked! Always ask these things, the last thing I'd want is to have you guys study the wrong information!


Bereza
Friday 05th of May 2006 01:47:53 AM
For Teup [ay] like as [ai] in Russian, in English that letter is house [haus], {i} is the same i in these 'plate' [pleit] (in English)


Eli
Friday 05th of May 2006 02:06:17 AM
I guess you are right telling that most of them aren't diphthongs. But you see it only from linguistics point of view. For us (me and Bereza) all the sounds which are more complicated than "a" or "o" are "diphthongs" since they don't exist in our languages :)
By the way "ooi", "oei" and others are on the next page.
But even if we know how to pronounce these "diphthongs", we won't be able to do it as native speakers unless we live couple of years in Holland or Belgium.
But it really doesn't matter. All we want, in our first step - is to enrich our vocabualry and be able to speak in the way you (or every other who speaks Dutch) will understand us. The rest will come after. :)
For this this reason, we really appreciate your help as well as the help of other guys (do girls speak Dutch? :p ) in this forum!


hayim
Saturday 06th of May 2006 06:21:50 AM
I would say, from a linguistic point of view, they are all diphthongs. Ooi and oei etc are classified as triphthongs. This, I took for granted but I could be wrong. I will ask the question to Wim Vortman (linguist and Dutch teacher) on the forum of the site mentioned to test the info as you advised, Teup. I have to disagree that it is usually 'them' who are wrong. I, for example, do not think that you are usually wrong on this forum since I have taken the trouble to read most of your comments. They are coherent and consistent, which adds to your credibility as an information source. I have found a few good Dutch websites (among many crappy sites) that I consider to be credible for the same reason. Whenever I am in doubt, I check the official Dutch grammar (which requires a good understanding of written Dutch) http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~ans/.


Mathieu
Saturday 06th of May 2006 04:58:51 PM
Originally posted by hayim
I have to disagree that it is usually 'them' who are wrong. I, for example, do not think that you are usually wrong on this forum since I have taken the trouble to read most of your comments. They are coherent and consistent, which adds to your credibility as an information source.

Hmm :D Thanks. Well ok, I'm sure there are sites that give good info. But there's always something someone can get wrong, and it's always better to doubt something that turned out to be correct afterwards, than to assume something to be true that in fact isn't. So at least when you find info that really raises an eyebrow, keep open the possibility that they are wrong. But true, you shouldn't assume so by default ;) I talk so much, I'm sure I've made an error here and there, but here we luckily have interaction! :)

Here's the transcription of the diphthongs in modern Netherlandic, for anyone that happens to know IPA:

< ij >,< ei > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/{.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/i.gif[/img]

< au >,< ou > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/ha.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/u.gif[/img]

< ui > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/hv.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/y.gif[/img]

< ee > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/e.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/i.gif[/img]

< oo > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/o.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/u.gif[/img]

< eu > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/2.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/y.gif[/img]

The other ones are like this:

aai = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/a.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/j.gif[/img]

< ooi > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/o.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/j.gif[/img]

< oei > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/u.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/j.gif[/img]

< eeuw > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/e.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/w.gif[/img]

< ieuw > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/i.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/w.gif[/img]

< auw >, < ouw > = [img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/ha.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/u.gif[/img][img]http://home.planet.nl/~klomp490/IPAGIF/w.gif[/img]

Did you notice? All of the ones in the latter list have a glide consonant [j] or [w] at the end. They are not diphthongs from a linguistic point of view, they are just vowels ending in a glide (except for that last one, which obviously remains a diphthong after cutting the [w] off). Consequently; if you ask a native to read the word "lijn" backwards they say "nijl", leaving the diphthong in tact since it's 1 vowel, but when you ask them to turn around "mooi", they don't say "ooim", they say "joom". So the ones in the "ooi" list are fake diphthongs.


hayim
Saturday 06th of May 2006 11:22:20 PM
Tweeklanken: Dank u voor uw uitgebreid antwoord, Teup.You are not the only person I have put to work (www.dutchgrammar.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?p=3395) :p. I think we can conclude that there are pure and semi or 'fake' diphthongs. Besides, eu, oe and ie are not classified as diphthongs. That is how it was explained to me with the remark that this is merely an academic question, which bears no relevance for those who are learning Dutch. I have to agree here but I did find it an interesting sidetrack. Thanks again, Teup.


Mathieu
Sunday 07th of May 2006 12:08:10 AM
Yeah the difference between the real and fake ones is just somethic academic, I agree. "ee", "oo" and "eu" are traditionally said to be [e], [o], and [], but the theory lacks behind on the actual language a bit, since in modern Netherlandic (so not in Belgium), all three have turned into diphthongs. So if you come across info saying the "eu" is just a simple, flat vowel (like in German), then the info is just a bit old fashioned. But yeah "ie" and "oe" definately are ordinary simple vowels, similar too English "ee" and "oo".


Eli
Monday 01st of January 2007 03:12:34 AM
Hi to all Dutch language students!
I haven't been in this forum for a while, but it doesn't mean that I stopped to study Dutch!
So I have couple of questions to ask:

1. It is written: "Wanneer gaat u met vakantie?" Why we use "met" in this sentence which actually means: "When do you go with your vacation?" In English we say: "When do you go on your vacation?"
Can we use "op" instead of "met" or maybe something else?

2. "Doet u maar twee kilo appels" - "Give me just 2kg of apples". I guess we can use "Geeft" instead of "Doet". But what is the difference?

3. "Het materiaal waarvan ze worden gemaatk, is natuurlijk vrij eenvoudig". Can we use "zijn" instead of "worden"?

Thanks in advance and Happy New Year!!!


Branco
Monday 01st of January 2007 09:25:22 PM
These are good questions and definitely need some good thinking on my part to answer them. Let's give it a try.

1. I got this question from my aunt a few months ago and back then I wasn't completely sure about the difference, now I'm feel more sure about it.
The difference is 'met vakantie' can also mean 'not having to work' whereas 'op vakantie' is generally used when referring to 'going somewhere in your spare time'. However this difference may be different for each person, but I think this is the case for most people, it is for me anyway.

2. 'Doet u maar' is more appropriate in a store when the seller asks you what u want to buy, e.g. at the bakery. 'Geeft u maar' is more demanding. It can also be used in a robbery: 'Geef me je geld!', and 'doet u' cannot, e.g. 'Doe mij je geld', this sounds very strange.

3. In this case I think they can both be used. However if you refer to the process of making the material, then you should use 'worden'. In the case of 'zijn' the process is already completed.

I hope it's all clear to you.


Eli
Tuesday 02nd of January 2007 01:57:27 AM
Thanks a lot!
Now I see that these questions are not easy at all...
:)


Eli
Friday 05th of January 2007 11:52:45 PM
One year ago (8 January 2006) I asked the following question:
"Why in the following sentence there is an inversion:
Vandaag kookt hij aardappelen en groente".

And this is the answer I got from Mathieu:
Originally posted by Mathieu
The verb is always either the first or the second bit of the sentence. So if the first part is occupied by an adverbial phrase, like 'vandaag', you get the verb second because it's too impatient to keep waiting :). The phrase that causes the verb to come after it immediately can be anything, from 'vandaag' to 'daarna' to 'omdat ik morgen vrij ben'..

Now, one year later :) I came across with this kind of sentence:
"Terwijl we wachten, bekijken we de kaart".
Why there is no inversion here?

Thanks!



Minty
Sunday 07th of January 2007 01:04:49 AM
I have a daft question to ask. About the pronounciation of 'Sch' in Schipol. Is it one sound as in ship or 2 separate sounds as in skip? I have got confused by this and its bothring me lol as I have been told different things by different people
Bedankt
Sarah


Mathieu
Sunday 07th of January 2007 08:39:52 AM
Originally posted by Eli


One year ago (8 January 2006) I asked the following question:
\"Why in the following sentence there is an inversion:
Vandaag kookt hij aardappelen en groente\".

And this is the answer I got from Mathieu:
Originally posted by Mathieu
The verb is always either the first or the second bit of the sentence. So if the first part is occupied by an adverbial phrase, like 'vandaag', you get the verb second because it's too impatient to keep waiting :). The phrase that causes the verb to come after it immediately can be anything, from 'vandaag' to 'daarna' to 'omdat ik morgen vrij ben'..

Now, one year later :) I came across with this kind of sentence:
\"Terwijl we wachten, bekijken we de kaart\".
Why there is no inversion here?

Thanks!


Hmm smart one Eli :D I'd never have noticed. Well, I think it's like this. When you say "terwijl we wachten", it is actually a new clause you open after "terwijl": "terwijl [the event]". When you say "vandaag ga ik ... " it is one single clause, the "vandaag" is an intregral part of the thing that is happening, and since the verb has to be either 1st or 2nd in a clause, it has to come immediately after "vandaag". But with "terwijl" you announce a new, seperate clause and you mean to say that something happens at the meantime of that action (which is a fact that stands on it's own; we have 1. the action 2. the fact that something happens in the meantime), so intuitively it might make sense that we are dealing with a seperate clause here. And when we have a seperate clause, we don't need inversion anymore: in "terwijl [we wachten]", "wachten" has no business with "terwijl" because it's not in its clause. Furthermore, remember that in an embedded clause the order is Subject-Object-Verb. In the example of "terwijl [we wachten]" you don't see this since there is no object, but look:

[We eten een appel] (S-V-O)
[Dat [we een appel eten]] (S-O-V)
[Terwijl [we een appel eten]] (S-O-V)

So here you can clearly see "terwijl" opens an embedded clause just like a word like "dat" does.


But I agree it's not always obvious. For example, there are two words that mean "because":

[Ik eet omdat [ik honger heb]] (opens embedded clause, and thus S-O-V)
[Ik eet], want [ik heb honger] (want starts an entirely new sentence, so "ik heb honger" is a normal sentence, thus S-V-O)

Another example is ways of saying "by the way":

[Overigens eet ik een appel] (part of the clause, thus causes inversion)

[Trouwens], [ik eet een appel] (entirely seperate sentence, no effects, just like "want").


Anyway, point of all this is; "terwijl" opens an embedded clause, "vandaag" is part of the same clause (it modifies the way in which the action is performed (namely the time)). I hope that intuitively makes sense by saying we have 1. an event 2. the fact something happens in the meanwhile of it and the one fact doesn't modify the other; hence we make 2 clauses, one to express each thing. I hope I made it a little bit more logical, sortta.. otherwise ask :)


I have a daft question to ask. About the pronounciation of 'Sch' in Schipol. Is it one sound as in ship or 2 separate sounds as in skip? I have got confused by this and its bothring me lol as I have been told different things by different people
Bedankt
Sarah


Always ask :)

It's indeed two different sounds. It's an [s] and then a [X], which is the Dutch "g" or "ch" sound. You could see it as a softer version of [sk]. If we would spell "sg" in Dutch, it would sound exactly the same.
By the way, in the cluster "schr", which is pronounced as if it were "s+g+r", it isn't wrong to just drop the "g" sound and pronounce "sr".


Minty
Monday 08th of January 2007 12:23:53 AM

Aha bedankt. Thats good to know.
Is there a thread here somewhere which deals with telling the time? Thanks again ;)

Sarah


Mathieu
Monday 08th of January 2007 01:56:53 AM
Hmm, don't think so.. anyway:

1:00 = n uur
1:05 = vijf over n
1:10 = tien over n
1:15 = kwart over n
1:20 = tien vr half twee
1:25 = vijf vr half twee
1:30 = half twee
1:35 = vijf over half twee
1:40 = tien over half twee
1:45 = kwart vr twee
1:50 = tien vr twee
1:55 = vijf voor twee



Minty
Thursday 11th of January 2007 04:21:19 AM

Fantastisch bedankt.
erm is that am or pm? Certainly abit confusing to me anyway lol. From 1.20 to 1.30 it looks as if its an hour ahead.

;) Hugs Sarah


Branco
Thursday 11th of January 2007 06:07:50 PM
It doesn't matter whether it's am or pm in Dutch it's all the same.
The way we tell time is certainly a bit confusing especially the 1.20 to 1.30 period you mentioned. It always takes me some time to translate it properly to another language, because you easily make the mistake of using the wrong hour, adding an hour to what it it's supposed to be.

In German they tell time the same way as in Dutch and that's the only other language I know in which they tell time using the '5 voor half' en '5 over half' parts.


Minty
Friday 12th of January 2007 06:33:53 PM
Bedankt Branco
It doesn't matter? I guess you tell by wether its light or dark outside? ;)
Yes it does take abit of thinking about, I think I'm getting there. half twee looks like 2.30 to me but I guess it means half an hour away from 2pm.
My partner is studying german and I think he has just got a handle on their clock now.

Thanks again

knuffelen Sarah


Mathieu
Friday 12th of January 2007 08:35:35 PM
Originally posted by Minty


Bedankt Branco
It doesn't matter? I guess you tell by wether its light or dark outside? ;)
Yes it does take abit of thinking about, I think I'm getting there. half twee looks like 2.30 to me but I guess it means half an hour away from 2pm.
My partner is studying german and I think he has just got a handle on their clock now.

Thanks again

knuffelen Sarah

Think of "half twee" in terms of; it's not two, only 'halfly' so ;)

But.. what?? when you're at a bus stop and someone asks you the time you actually add "am" or "pm" to this when you answer? :D

Anyway, when it does matter, like when someone asks at what time you will depart (then it could be anytime), you can say:

"Dertien uur dertig" ("thirteen hour thirty"), which is 13:30. For whole hours you say "Dertienhonderd" ("1300").

Otherwise you could just pick one from the list I provided and add "'s middags" ("in the afternoon") or "'s avonds" ("in the evening") to it. I recommend not using the concepts "am" and "pm", because many people will not know which one is which.




Naomi_rus
Monday 15th of January 2007 01:00:49 AM
Hallo!
I need some help with Dutch)) Sorry if some of my questions were are already asked here, a traffic limit doesn't allow me to read all the previous posts.
I learn Dutch by myself so I've got een Nederlands Leerboek. It has a lot of exercises after each lesson, but unfortunately there is no chance to check your answers, because the right ones are not given in this book! So I've got few questions.

1) What is the translation for "Speak slower please" - "Spreek alsjeblieft langzaam" or "Spreek langzaam alsjeblieft"?

2) What does "nog" mean in this sentence "Mevrouw De Vries komt de kamer nog niet binnen"? The task is to ask Mevrouw De Vries to do something that she doesn't do. My answer is - "Wilt u alstublieft de kamer binnenkomen, mevrouw De Vries?". Is it correct and should I put that "nog" in the question?

3) What does "eens" mean? The sentence is "Meneer De Wit moet eens gaan zitten". The dictionary says "eens" means "once". I'm not sure I got the meaning...

Thanks for your help!


Branco
Monday 15th of January 2007 04:57:37 PM
You've come to the right place for your questions. It's always better to get feedback than just checking your answers from a book. Let's start with your first question.
1) "Spreek alsjeblieft langzaam" is OK, although most people wouldn't use an imperative here, it's a bit strong. Better would be: "Kun je wat langzamer praten?"
'Praten' is more appropriate here than 'spreken'. I'm not exactly sure how to define the difference between these two, but 'spreken' is a bit more formal. E.g. "De minister spreekt van een goed jaar" as opposed to "Jij praat teveel".

2) nog means up to now, still, as yet. If you want to ask her to enter the room which she doesn't do then you have to use nog of alsnog.
"Wilt u aub nog de kamer binnenkomen?" of
"Komt u de kamer nog binnen?" of
"Komt u alsnog de kamer binnen?"

3) 'Eens' means here: for a short period of time.
"Meneer de Wit moet eens gaan zitten".
"Mr. de Wit has to sit down for a minute".



Sandra
Monday 15th of January 2007 05:51:13 PM
I would just like to add a bit to the explanation of "eens" a bit.

Fairy tales often start with:
Er was eens .. - meaning: once upon a time there was a ..

Eens zal hij het leren. - Some day he will learn.

In your sentence eens is combined with "moeten" and the person saying this is saying mr. de wit should go sit down at a certain point in time, but rather sooner then later.


Minty
Monday 15th of January 2007 08:46:21 PM

Bedankt Teup, that is useful to know ;)

Also I am curious about the sentence "Kun je wat langzamer praten?" why is 'wat' used instead of 'dat'?? thanx lol.

I've had a look at the english forum, could they use some extra help there, it seems as though there aren't many native english speakers around, which surprises me lol.

Knuffelen Minty xxx


Branco
Monday 15th of January 2007 09:18:57 PM
You can use 'wat' like this in many sentences, it makes it sound a bit more colloquial. 'Wat' means a bit here "Kun je een beetje langzamer praten?". Other examples with 'wat' in the same context: "Kun je wat doorgeven? Could you pass something on?, "Mag ik je wat vragen" May I ask you something?", etc.
The use of 'dat' is not allowed here, well it is allowed but then it means something different.


Naomi_rus
Wednesday 17th of January 2007 01:34:43 AM
Thank you for all the explanations, I've finally got it.))


Minty
Wednesday 17th of January 2007 08:24:40 PM
Thanks again Branco, that makes sense to me somehow.

Hugs Sarah


Naomi_rus
Saturday 27th of January 2007 02:28:06 AM
Hello,
can I get little translation help?
I'm writing an article about tulipmania for my English lesson at school. And I'd like to use this image - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Pamphlet_dutch_tulipomania_1637.jpg , but I don't have enough time to translate it. I've only started learning Dutch so it takes me forever to translate such a text. I don't need translation for all the phrases, just the general meaning would be enough.

Thanks!


Mathieu
Saturday 27th of January 2007 03:54:43 AM
It seems to be a "flyer" for a narrated play that will be performed 'soon'. About flower trade. I can't really understand the details either, and it is of course ridiculous to expect any student to do so :)


Naomi_rus
Saturday 27th of January 2007 04:36:20 AM
Originally posted by Mathieu


It seems to be a \"flyer\" for a narrated play that will be performed 'soon'. About flower trade. I can't really understand the details either, and it is of course ridiculous to expect any student to do so :)

Thank you very much!

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