Dutch The Dutch Pronouns Strong And Weak Pronouns

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Mathieu Tuesday 29th of November 2005 12:49:46 AM
The Dutch Pronouns - [i]This is something I\'ve written in the Dutch Grammar topic. However, it seems it has been overlooked more than once, so here it is in a seperate topic. You will not understand all of this at first, perhaps you won\'t for a long time, but focus on what you do understand. I just throw all there is to it at you right now, be prepared :D
---[/i]

Dutch has 4 cases: Nominative (subject, \"I\"), Genitive (possessive, \"my\"), Dative (indirect object, \"me\"), and Accusative (direct object, \"me\"). You\'re lucky: all dative pronouns are identical to their accusative counterpars. So that\'s all exactly like English.

What is not like English though, is that Dutch has a different sort of distinction [i]besides[/i] case, namely [b]strong[/b] and [b]weak[/b], aka [b]stressed[/b] and [b]unstressed[/b], respectively. Now, what does this mean? Basically, it means that if the stress is on the pronoun, you have its strong form, if not, you get its weak form. People often think it\'s hard to learn, but don\'t we have it in English as well? Pronounce this dialog to yourself with a Scottish accent :)

\"You have a problem?\"
\"No, you have a problem!\"

If you did it correctly, you\'ll notice that the first \"you\" sounds different form the second. In the first sentence it isn\'t stressed, so you get \"ya\", in the second, it is stressed and so you get a full \"you\" there. That is exactly what\'s going on in Dutch. The only difference is that it\'s not dialectish, or optional; it is standard and obligatory.

\"Heb [u]je[/u] een probleem?\"
\"Nee, [u]jij[/u] hebt een probleem!\"

Just use your intuition and see how far you get. If it turns out wrong, listen to/read some more Dutch and see if your intuition improves.

Here\'s the complete table:

[b]Nominative (subject)[/b]

[u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u]
I = Ik - Ik (\'k)
You = Jij - Je
You(formal) = U - U
He = Hij - -ie*
She = Zij - Ze
It = Het - Het/\'t

We = Wij - We
You(plural) = Jullie - Jullie
They = Zij - Ze

[b]Accusative/Dative (direct object, indirect object)[/b]

[u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u]
Me = Mij - Me
You = Jou - Je
You(formal) = U - U
Him = Hem - \'m
Her = Haar - d\'r
It = Dit(this),die(that) - Het/\'t
[i](logically, if you stress an object, you\'ll resort to words like \"this\" and \"that\", just like in English. It\'s just that Dutch does this for persons as well besides this)[/i]
It (when after preposition) = hier+prep. (this), daar+prep. (that) - er+prep

Us = Ons - Ons
You(plural) = Jullie - Jullie
Them(persons) = Hun/hen - Ze
Them(things) = Deze(these),die(those) - Ze
[i](again, if you stress objects, you\'ll resort to \"these\" and \"those\")[/i]

[b]Genitive (possessive)[/b]

[u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u]
My = Mijn - M\'n
Your = Jouw - Je
Your(formal) = Uw - Uw
His = Zijn - Z\'n
Her = Haar - D\'r
Its = N/A

Optional: Demonstrative His/Her (\"of the person in question\") = Diens

Our (+Neut) = Ons - Ons
Our (+Masc/Fem) = Onze - Onze
Your(plural) = Jullie - Je
Their(persons) = Hun - Hun

[b]Independent possessive pronouns[/b]
[i]note that these are informal. That\'s why I mark them with quotes; it\'s casual speaking language. A construction like \"that book is of me, of you, etc.\" is generally preferred instead of \"that book is mine, yours, etc.\" when writing. You can skip this paradigm entirely if you want.[/i]

Mine - \"(de) mijne\"
Yours - \"de jouwe\", some people (I ;)) say: \"jouwne\"
Yours(formal) - \"de uwe\"
His - \"de zijne\"
Hers - N.A.

Ours - \"de onze\"
Yours(plural) - N.A.
Theirs - \"de hunne\"

[b]Reflexive anaphors[/b]

[u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u]
[i](stressed ones not required, only if you really really want to stress it)[/i]
Myself = mijzelf - mezelf
Yourself = jouzelf - jezelf
Yourself(formal) = uzelf
Himself = hemzelf - zichzelf
Herself = haarzelf - zichzelf
Itself = zichzelf
Ourselves = onszelf
Yourselves = julliezelf - jezelf
Yourselves(formal) = uzelf
Themselves = hunzelf - zichzelf

[b]Reflexive verb particles[/b]

[u]pronoun = weak[/u]
1st person singular = me
2nd person singular = je
2nd person singular formal = zich
3rd person singular masculine = zich
3rd person singular feminine = zich
3rd person singular neuter = zich
1st person plural = ons
2nd person plural = je
2nd person plural formal = zich
3rd person plural = zich
[i](e.g. \"I realise\" = \"Ik realiseer [u]me[/u]\", \"He realises\" = \"Hij realiseert [u]zich[/u]\")[/i]

[b]Reciprocals[/b]

[u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u]
Each other = elkaar - mekaar
[i](this is a personal preference: you\'d be fine with just \"elkaar\", it\'s very dialect sensitive)[/i]

[b]Quantifiers[/b]

Somebody - iemand
Nobody - niemand
Anybody - wie dan ook
Everybody - iedereen

[b]This, that, these, those..[/b]

This = Dit (neuter), Deze (common)
That = Dat (neuter), Die (common)
These = Deze (common)
Those = Die (common)

[u][b]Application of unstressed \'he\'[/b][/u]
About unstressed \'he\', namely \'-ie\', it attaches behind the verb: (bold = stressed part)
[i][b]Werkt[/b]-ie?[/i]
Does he [b]work[/b]? (or have a job)

Or behind \'that\':

[i]Wist [b]jij[/b] dat-ie [b]werkt[/b]?[/i]
Did [b]you[/b] know that he [b]works[/b]?

The fact that \'-ie\' attaches to the previous word entails that you need a construction in which there is in fact such a word before it. Sometimes this means a topicalization is needed in order to be able to say an unstressed \'he\':

Hij doet dat - [b]He[/b] does that.
Dat doet-ie - [b]That[/b], he does.

\'-ie\', however, is rarely written - in written languages \'he\' tend to be just \'hij\'. But, in spoken language, \'-ie\' is very prominent. If you use \'hij\' in a context where it really isn\'t stressed (in this case: you were having a talk about \'him\' and the subject is raised whether that person works or not) then people may find you sound formal, as if you\'re writing. There are more of these unstressed pronouns that are practically obligatory in spoken language but not written very often.
It is not wrong if you say \"hij\" when it\'s unstressed when there is no previous word for it to lean against. It is more awkward, however, to say \"hij\" when it\'s unstressed and there in fact [b]is[/b] a word for it to lean against.

[u][b]Application of \'our\'[/b][/u]
Note that it is:
\"Dat is onze auto\" (That is our car)
\"Die auto is van ons\" (That car is \'of us\')
\'Auto\' isn\'t a neuter (het) word, but you don\'t get \'onze\' in the 2nd phrase because the word \'ons\' here is attached to a preposition, which means that it gets accusative case, which gives you \'ons\'.

[u][b]Regarding \'it\'[/b][/u]
I mentioned something special when \"it\" is accusative (an object) after a preposition. This is how the pattern goes (first a normal verb, then one which takes an object with a preposition. Bold = stressed, Underlined = a preposition)

First we\'ll use a normal personal pronoun, this pattern should look familiar:

Weak pronoun:
I [b]see[/b] you - Ik [b]zie[/b] je
I [b]think[/b] [u]of[/u] you - Ik [b]denk[/b] [u]aan[/u] je

Strong pronoun:
I see [b]you[/b] - Ik zie [b]jou[/b]
I think [u]of[/u] [b]you[/b] - Ik denk [u]aan[/u] [b]jou[/b]

OK. Now, we take \"it\" instead of \"you\". See what happens:

Weak pronoun:
I [b]see[/b] it - Ik [b]zie[/b] het
I [b]think[/b] [u]of[/u] it - Ik [b]denk[/b] er[u]aan[/u]

Strong pronoun:
I see [b]this/that[/b] - Ik zie [b]dit/dat[/b]
I think [u]of[/u] [b]this/that[/b] - Ik denk[b] hier[u]aan[/u]/daar[u]aan[/u][/b]

[b]Choice between \"het\" and \"hij\" to mean \"it\" in the Netherlandic standard dialect[/b]

Something that precedes the choice between the strong and the weak version of a pronoun is of course the choice of the pronoun itself. In the case of \"it\", this can be either \"hij\" or \"het\" in the standard dialect. Take a look:

I see it (my money, paperworks, water, grass, fire)
Ik zie [u]het[/u]

I see it (my cup of coffee, a sheet of paper, a drop of water, a blade of grass, a flame)
Ik zie [u]hem[/u]

The rule to this is that when you\'re talking about \"stuff\", general things, go for \"het\". If you are talking about one single defined entity, go for \"hij\". It doesn\'t matter whether the object is animate, inanimate, grammatically masculine or feminine, biologically male or female - if you would use \"it\" to refer to a cow, you would use \"hij\" in Dutch. (You can also refer to an animal with \"he\" or \"she\" of course, you can similarly use \"hij\" and \"zij\" in Dutch. I\'m only saying that if you choose to say \"it\", you\'d have to go for \"hij\" because you cannot say \"het\" to mean an animal, object, etc.)

By now, you could use a

==== Reassuring comment ====
Foreigners get this wrong. That\'s perfectly normal - people will get familiar with your accent and your way of speaking, and will not pay attention to it. For a native to do it wrong would sound awkward, but for foreigners it\'s just part of their accent and people will understand you just as fine if you use the stressed ones where you should unstress. Jij/je is more important than the rest, and you\'ll have the hang of that before you know it. And be glad Dutch is so poor, it only has 3 overt cases!! In other languages you could be much worse off ;) And this table I made is exhaustive - this is the whole deal, there\'s nothing else to it!
==== /Reassuring comment ====

[b]NOTE: If anyone disagrees, has additions, questions, etc, just post.. I just did this from the top of my head..[/b]

30-12-05: Thanks to [b]lekker[/b] for mentioning Independent Possessive Pronouns!

Eli Friday 30th of December 2005 05:46:51 AM
- And what about Independed Possessive Pronouns (mijne..)?

Mathieu Friday 30th of December 2005 06:27:07 AM
- Fixed, thanks for mentioning :)

OneOfMyTurns Wednesday 23rd of August 2006 07:55:03 AM
- pretty damn impressive teup..did you type that all out? either way, that\'s dedication :D

anyway, i\'m new to nederlands so its all greatly appreciated!

Mathieu Wednesday 23rd of August 2006 04:27:15 PM
- Apparently :D If there\'s anything I\'ve missed or anything (or if it\'s plain unclear ;)) just tell, it\'s a forum after all :)

Tiger Sunday 27th of August 2006 11:33:26 AM
- Wow! I gotta agree with Tomas, you did pretty good, Teup!

Phrasebase Archive
	Mathieu	Tuesday 29th of November 2005 12:49:46 AM
	The Dutch Pronouns - [i]This is something I\'ve written in the Dutch Grammar topic. However, it seems it has been overlooked more than once, so here it is in a seperate topic. You will not understand all of this at first, perhaps you won\'t for a long time, but focus on what you do understand. I just throw all there is to it at you right now, be prepared :D ---[/i] Dutch has 4 cases: Nominative (subject, \"I\"), Genitive (possessive, \"my\"), Dative (indirect object, \"me\"), and Accusative (direct object, \"me\"). You\'re lucky: all dative pronouns are identical to their accusative counterpars. So that\'s all exactly like English. What is not like English though, is that Dutch has a different sort of distinction [i]besides[/i] case, namely [b]strong[/b] and [b]weak[/b], aka [b]stressed[/b] and [b]unstressed[/b], respectively. Now, what does this mean? Basically, it means that if the stress is on the pronoun, you have its strong form, if not, you get its weak form. People often think it\'s hard to learn, but don\'t we have it in English as well? Pronounce this dialog to yourself with a Scottish accent :) \"You have a problem?\" \"No, you have a problem!\" If you did it correctly, you\'ll notice that the first \"you\" sounds different form the second. In the first sentence it isn\'t stressed, so you get \"ya\", in the second, it is stressed and so you get a full \"you\" there. That is exactly what\'s going on in Dutch. The only difference is that it\'s not dialectish, or optional; it is standard and obligatory. \"Heb [u]je[/u] een probleem?\" \"Nee, [u]jij[/u] hebt een probleem!\" Just use your intuition and see how far you get. If it turns out wrong, listen to/read some more Dutch and see if your intuition improves. Here\'s the complete table: [b]Nominative (subject)[/b] [u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u] I = Ik - Ik (\'k) You = Jij - Je You(formal) = U - U He = Hij - -ie* She = Zij - Ze It = Het - Het/\'t We = Wij - We You(plural) = Jullie - Jullie They = Zij - Ze [b]Accusative/Dative (direct object, indirect object)[/b] [u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u] Me = Mij - Me You = Jou - Je You(formal) = U - U Him = Hem - \'m Her = Haar - d\'r It = Dit(this),die(that) - Het/\'t [i](logically, if you stress an object, you\'ll resort to words like \"this\" and \"that\", just like in English. It\'s just that Dutch does this for persons as well besides this)[/i] It (when after preposition) = hier+prep. (this), daar+prep. (that) - er+prep Us = Ons - Ons You(plural) = Jullie - Jullie Them(persons) = Hun/hen - Ze Them(things) = Deze(these),die(those) - Ze [i](again, if you stress objects, you\'ll resort to \"these\" and \"those\")[/i] [b]Genitive (possessive)[/b] [u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u] My = Mijn - M\'n Your = Jouw - Je Your(formal) = Uw - Uw His = Zijn - Z\'n Her = Haar - D\'r Its = N/A Optional: Demonstrative His/Her (\"of the person in question\") = Diens Our (+Neut) = Ons - Ons Our (+Masc/Fem) = Onze - Onze Your(plural) = Jullie - Je Their(persons) = Hun - Hun [b]Independent possessive pronouns[/b] [i]note that these are informal. That\'s why I mark them with quotes; it\'s casual speaking language. A construction like \"that book is of me, of you, etc.\" is generally preferred instead of \"that book is mine, yours, etc.\" when writing. You can skip this paradigm entirely if you want.[/i] Mine - \"(de) mijne\" Yours - \"de jouwe\", some people (I ;)) say: \"jouwne\" Yours(formal) - \"de uwe\" His - \"de zijne\" Hers - N.A. Ours - \"de onze\" Yours(plural) - N.A. Theirs - \"de hunne\" [b]Reflexive anaphors[/b] [u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u] [i](stressed ones not required, only if you really really want to stress it)[/i] Myself = mijzelf - mezelf Yourself = jouzelf - jezelf Yourself(formal) = uzelf Himself = hemzelf - zichzelf Herself = haarzelf - zichzelf Itself = zichzelf Ourselves = onszelf Yourselves = julliezelf - jezelf Yourselves(formal) = uzelf Themselves = hunzelf - zichzelf [b]Reflexive verb particles[/b] [u]pronoun = weak[/u] 1st person singular = me 2nd person singular = je 2nd person singular formal = zich 3rd person singular masculine = zich 3rd person singular feminine = zich 3rd person singular neuter = zich 1st person plural = ons 2nd person plural = je 2nd person plural formal = zich 3rd person plural = zich [i](e.g. \"I realise\" = \"Ik realiseer [u]me[/u]\", \"He realises\" = \"Hij realiseert [u]zich[/u]\")[/i] [b]Reciprocals[/b] [u]pronoun = strong - weak[/u] Each other = elkaar - mekaar [i](this is a personal preference: you\'d be fine with just \"elkaar\", it\'s very dialect sensitive)[/i] [b]Quantifiers[/b] Somebody - iemand Nobody - niemand Anybody - wie dan ook Everybody - iedereen [b]This, that, these, those..[/b] This = Dit (neuter), Deze (common) That = Dat (neuter), Die (common) These = Deze (common) Those = Die (common) [u][b]Application of unstressed \'he\'[/b][/u] About unstressed \'he\', namely \'-ie\', it attaches behind the verb: (bold = stressed part) [i][b]Werkt[/b]-ie?[/i] Does he [b]work[/b]? (or have a job) Or behind \'that\': [i]Wist [b]jij[/b] dat-ie [b]werkt[/b]?[/i] Did [b]you[/b] know that he [b]works[/b]? The fact that \'-ie\' attaches to the previous word entails that you need a construction in which there is in fact such a word before it. Sometimes this means a topicalization is needed in order to be able to say an unstressed \'he\': Hij doet dat - [b]He[/b] does that. Dat doet-ie - [b]That[/b], he does. \'-ie\', however, is rarely written - in written languages \'he\' tend to be just \'hij\'. But, in spoken language, \'-ie\' is very prominent. If you use \'hij\' in a context where it really isn\'t stressed (in this case: you were having a talk about \'him\' and the subject is raised whether that person works or not) then people may find you sound formal, as if you\'re writing. There are more of these unstressed pronouns that are practically obligatory in spoken language but not written very often. It is not wrong if you say \"hij\" when it\'s unstressed when there is no previous word for it to lean against. It is more awkward, however, to say \"hij\" when it\'s unstressed and there in fact [b]is[/b] a word for it to lean against. [u][b]Application of \'our\'[/b][/u] Note that it is: \"Dat is onze auto\" (That is our car) \"Die auto is van ons\" (That car is \'of us\') \'Auto\' isn\'t a neuter (het) word, but you don\'t get \'onze\' in the 2nd phrase because the word \'ons\' here is attached to a preposition, which means that it gets accusative case, which gives you \'ons\'. [u][b]Regarding \'it\'[/b][/u] I mentioned something special when \"it\" is accusative (an object) after a preposition. This is how the pattern goes (first a normal verb, then one which takes an object with a preposition. Bold = stressed, Underlined = a preposition) First we\'ll use a normal personal pronoun, this pattern should look familiar: Weak pronoun: I [b]see[/b] you - Ik [b]zie[/b] je I [b]think[/b] [u]of[/u] you - Ik [b]denk[/b] [u]aan[/u] je Strong pronoun: I see [b]you[/b] - Ik zie [b]jou[/b] I think [u]of[/u] [b]you[/b] - Ik denk [u]aan[/u] [b]jou[/b] OK. Now, we take \"it\" instead of \"you\". See what happens: Weak pronoun: I [b]see[/b] it - Ik [b]zie[/b] het I [b]think[/b] [u]of[/u] it - Ik [b]denk[/b] er[u]aan[/u] Strong pronoun: I see [b]this/that[/b] - Ik zie [b]dit/dat[/b] I think [u]of[/u] [b]this/that[/b] - Ik denk[b] hier[u]aan[/u]/daar[u]aan[/u][/b] [b]Choice between \"het\" and \"hij\" to mean \"it\" in the Netherlandic standard dialect[/b] Something that precedes the choice between the strong and the weak version of a pronoun is of course the choice of the pronoun itself. In the case of \"it\", this can be either \"hij\" or \"het\" in the standard dialect. Take a look: I see it (my money, paperworks, water, grass, fire) Ik zie [u]het[/u] I see it (my cup of coffee, a sheet of paper, a drop of water, a blade of grass, a flame) Ik zie [u]hem[/u] The rule to this is that when you\'re talking about \"stuff\", general things, go for \"het\". If you are talking about one single defined entity, go for \"hij\". It doesn\'t matter whether the object is animate, inanimate, grammatically masculine or feminine, biologically male or female - if you would use \"it\" to refer to a cow, you would use \"hij\" in Dutch. (You can also refer to an animal with \"he\" or \"she\" of course, you can similarly use \"hij\" and \"zij\" in Dutch. I\'m only saying that if you choose to say \"it\", you\'d have to go for \"hij\" because you cannot say \"het\" to mean an animal, object, etc.) By now, you could use a ==== Reassuring comment ==== Foreigners get this wrong. That\'s perfectly normal - people will get familiar with your accent and your way of speaking, and will not pay attention to it. For a native to do it wrong would sound awkward, but for foreigners it\'s just part of their accent and people will understand you just as fine if you use the stressed ones where you should unstress. Jij/je is more important than the rest, and you\'ll have the hang of that before you know it. And be glad Dutch is so poor, it only has 3 overt cases!! In other languages you could be much worse off ;) And this table I made is exhaustive - this is the whole deal, there\'s nothing else to it! ==== /Reassuring comment ==== [b]NOTE: If anyone disagrees, has additions, questions, etc, just post.. I just did this from the top of my head..[/b] 30-12-05: Thanks to [b]lekker[/b] for mentioning Independent Possessive Pronouns!
	Eli	Friday 30th of December 2005 05:46:51 AM
	- And what about Independed Possessive Pronouns (mijne..)?
	Mathieu	Friday 30th of December 2005 06:27:07 AM
	- Fixed, thanks for mentioning :)
	OneOfMyTurns	Wednesday 23rd of August 2006 07:55:03 AM
	- pretty damn impressive teup..did you type that all out? either way, that\'s dedication :D anyway, i\'m new to nederlands so its all greatly appreciated!
	Mathieu	Wednesday 23rd of August 2006 04:27:15 PM
	- Apparently :D If there\'s anything I\'ve missed or anything (or if it\'s plain unclear ;)) just tell, it\'s a forum after all :)
	Tiger	Sunday 27th of August 2006 11:33:26 AM
	- Wow! I gotta agree with Tomas, you did pretty good, Teup!