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| Hayley | Wednesday 19th of January 2005 04:06:23 PM |
| Tricky Words To Translate - Hi all, I've just started learning Dutch so am a real beginner...in my 'studies' I have stumbled across some Dutch words that are quite confuzzling. They apparenlty have no English translation but are just used to make sentences more polite. Could anyone enlighten me a little or give me some more examples of how you would use these in a sentence? Thanks :) [b] even eens maar hoor gewoon [/b] | |
| Gijs | Wednesday 19th of January 2005 04:50:38 PM |
| - Hi Hayley, I think i know what you mean,sometimes we use those words like extra words to make a sentence more polite. I will give some examples: [b]even[/b] Mag ik er EVEN langs alstublieft? (May i pass please?) Without this word "even"it may sound a bit rude... Ofcourse it depends on the intonation you use also. [b]maar[/b] As example in a reply to the prevous question: Ja hoor!, ga maar..(yes, go ahead.. Its more friendly this way. [b]gewoon[/b] Mag ik het zelf pakken? (can i take this myself?) (for example in a store) The answer can be:ja, je mag het GEWOON pakken hoor!.. (This will give you the feeling that it is all right to do) "Je mag het pakken" sounds much less friendly.. [b]eens[/b] Luister eens! means something like (check out what i have to say..hear..) Luister! is much more direct. It means:Listen! Ofcourse there are much more examples. I think its better not to try to translate them,just learn them as part of sentences. succes! | |
| lowenguard | Thursday 20th of January 2005 06:19:18 AM |
| - hey Hayley! That's a good question you have there. I must say language-user did a good job explaining the words. But I'd like to add something about the word "hoor". In conversations, the Dutch avoid saying things that may sound like a direct order and therefore add words to it that softens the tone (like "even", "eens", "gewoon" and "maar") "... hoor" is different. It indicates agreement or disagreement with something, depending on the relation between the information in the sentence and the (imaginairy) context. A few examples: You're waiting outside a restaurant and waiting for a friend to arrive. Then he calls and tells you he'll be late and you should enter first. He would say "Ga maar vast naar binnen hoor" meaning you can go in first with in mind that you don't have to wait for him outside in the cold. It is also used when you don't want the person you're talking to to forget about a certain fact. You could say "Ik ben ook maar een mens hoor." after being criticised for an error, meaning "(Don't forget,) I'm also only human. (I'm not perfect.)" In friendly conversation we use "hoor", but in formal speech better avoid it. You can usually leave it out, but it does sound a bit more inviting if you add it to the sentence when you allow people to do something. "je mag me alles vragen hoor" = You can ask me anything (don't be afraid). I hope this is clear... Have fun with Dutch! Jan | |
| Nostromo | Saturday 09th of April 2005 07:30:53 AM |
| Tricky Dutch Words - Most Dutch grammars and courses are woefully inadequate with these words (particles). Anyone would think they are untranslatable, but they're not. Maar means: 'but', 'only' and sometimes 'just'. Eens means: 'once', 'even'(as in 'not even...' = 'Niet eens') and 'just'. Hoor functions as a kind of soft 'd'you hear?' at the end of a sentence. Most of these are part of a fixed phrase. Sample sentences: -Ik kan het 'alleen maar' morgen doen = I an 'only' do it tomorrow. -Je kunt niet 'eens' zingen! = You can't 'even' sing! -Ga 'even' binnen. = 'Just' go in. I personally think 'toch' much more awkward. | |
| Mathieu | Saturday 09th of April 2005 05:01:42 PM |
| Toch - Toch might be difficult. To my knowledge there are 3 meanings to it: 1. 'all the same, anyway', to be pessimistic or optimistic: 'Het lukt ons toch niet' - 'we can't do it anyway' 'Het lukt ons toch wel' - 'we'll manage no matter what' 2. 'Toch' is also used when something happens against expectation, or is just in contrast to what's been said before: 'Het mocht niet maar hij heeft het toch gedaan' - 'It was prohibited but still he did it' 'Ik had genoeg geld, maar ik heb het toch niet gekocht' - 'I had enough money, but still I didn't buy it' 3. And, 'toch' is used when you're not sure of something: 'Hij is toch aan de beurt?' - 'It's his turn, right?' So, that can cause some ambiguity, like in: 'Dat kan toch niet' Which can either mean 'It's not possible anyway'(meaning 1), or 'nevertheless, it's not possible' (meaning 2), or 'It's not possible, right?...' (meaning 3). This depends mostly on the intonation, if you put stress on 'kan', you're sure it's meaning 3. If stress is on 'toch', it can be either meaning 1 or 2. That depends more on the context and if it's said in a surprised or sad manner. Don't be freaked out by this; it might just be the hardest thing about Dutch, and maybe it doesn't require alot of study or hard thinking, perhaps it's just something that comes with experience. | |
| Mathieu | Saturday 09th of April 2005 05:18:20 PM |
| even eens maar hoor gewoon - some examples with the words you did ask: (these are not exact translations, just try to grasp the feeling that is attached to the words) Hou op! - Stop it! Hou even op! - Will you stop for a moment?! Hou eens op! - Cut it out! Hou maar op! - Yeah, you can stop now! -or- Stop it, it's no use (anymore) Hou op, hoor! - sounds kind of lame.. would be like 'Stop it, you hear me?!' Hou gewoon op! - Just stop it!, You might as well stop it! Oh... 'toch' seems to work here as well, although not according to the 3 meanings I described: Hou toch op! - Ah, come on!, Get outta here! (figurative) Combinations are also allowed, but they don't add dramatically different meanings to 'hou op'. | |
| aaronwier | Thursday 28th of April 2005 06:01:40 PM |
| the word 'wel' - thanks for clearing up our thoughts on those words people. i email frequently a lovely lady in Emmen. in several emails she has used the word 'wel'. she said this is used to to confirm. for ex. 'We zijn wel verloofd maar nog niet getrouwd, beetje duur' (we are not yet married). can anyone elaborate a bit more on this thanks Aaron | |
| Mathieu | Thursday 28th of April 2005 09:58:54 PM |
| - Hehe ok I'm the first to take this one :) Wel has three meanings. 1. The first and most fundamental one is, indeed, to confim something. Think of it as the opposite of 'not' (it also has the same syntactic position as 'not', always, as far as I can track now). It is in some way equivalent to emphazing (and inserting) an auxiliary like 'do' - "I dó have it" "Ik heb het wél" 2. Then there's another really common one. "Het is groot" "It is big" "Het is wel groot" "It's rather on the big side" Here it's used to relativate something, it sort of has an "I guess" meaning (although your not guessing but you're sure). Maybe you can consider it kind of like the opposite of 'heel' ('very'). 3. The last one I add only for the sake of completeness, it is 'wel' as in 'well' when used as a filler. "Wel, ik ga weer" "Well, gotta go" This one is exclusive to Flemish Dutch and probably some other regional variants, so if you're learning standard Dutch you should avoid this application. And again, there are the inevitable ambiguities :) "Dat kan wel" could mean "Yeah, i guess it's possible" or "It ís possible (after all, nevertheless)" I can be very annoyed at times that English doesn't have a wel, as it is very useful. It also comes with another very useful word, which is the 'jawel'. 'Jawel' is used to deny a negative statement "You aren't going, are you?" "Oh yeah / yes, I am" -> "jawel". In hacker slang a word for this application was borrowed from Japanese, but it didn't make it to common colloqial English, sadly. 'Wel', with all it's associated meanings isn't unique to Dutch, as Norwegian and Swedish have it as well (don't know about German). | |
| showbizzmick | Saturday 30th of April 2005 04:26:58 PM |
| - Great topic! In my grammar course, we called these little words that are so typically Dutch "zinsmodificeerders" (sentence modifiers). Which is exactly what they do, they modify an entire sentence. They change the 'colour' or 'tone' or whatever you want to call it, of the message you are sending out. These particles have the important characteristic that they [u]can be strung together[/u]. An extreme, but quite 'real' example: Kom [i]dan toch maar wel eens even[/i] hier. This is basically 'Come here', but enormously downtoned. If you want to achieve the same effect in English, it would go something like this: [i]Actually, I do think you might want to [/i]come here [i]for a second after all[/i]. Another important aspect that has been mentioned before, is STRESS. A STRESSED particle usually means something else than an unstressed one. [b]maar[/b] When you can stress it, it is a coordinating conjunction (but/however/though/...). Ik kom, maar ik weet nog niet wanneer. can be stressed: Ik kom, mààààààrrr.... ik weet nog niet wanneer! (I'm coming, but I don't know when yet) When you can't stress it, it's a Sentence Modifier, as in the examples in previous posts. [b]toch[/b] When you can stress it, it can be translated into English using one word: Het haalt [i]toch[/i] niets uit! --- It's no use [i]anyway[/i]! Hij mocht niet, maar deed het [i]toch[/i]. --- He wasn't allowed to, but [i]still[/i] he did it. These are the first two categories Teup mentioned:[quote]Toch might be difficult. To my knowledge there are 3 meanings to it: 1. 'all the same, anyway', to be pessimistic or optimistic: 2. 'Toch' is also used when something happens against expectation, or is just in contrast to what's been said before: 3. And, 'toch' is used when you're not sure of something: 'Hij is toch aan de beurt?' - 'It's his turn, right?'[/quote] The third cannot be stressed. Because if you say 'hij is TOCH aan de beurt!' then you mean it's his turn after all. Unstressed, toch has several meanings, like the aforementioned uncertainty, but also irritation: Hou toch op! (would you cut it out!) Doe toch niet zo stom! (oh don't be such a twit) Waarom DOE je dat toch? (why on earth are you doing that?) --- There's lots more but that'll be all for now. I hope everyone's examples help give you a bit of 'feeling' for this grey area! | |
| Mathieu | Saturday 30th of April 2005 05:48:15 PM |
| - [quote][i]Originally posted by showbizzmick[/i] [i]Actually, I do think you might want to [/i]come here [i]for a second after all[/i]. [/quote] Brilliant :D [quote][i]Originally posted by showbizzmick[/i] There's lots more but that'll be all for now. I hope everyone's examples help give you a bit of 'feeling' for this grey area! [/quote] If not, just go learn the other, more obvious things first, so you can understand the language, then get yourself [b]alot[/b] of input (text, radio..) and you'll learn these vague things on an intuitive level without the head aches. That's my theory at least, and my tactic with Swedish :) | |
| Mathieu | Saturday 30th of April 2005 06:17:01 PM |
| - I noticed [b]nog[/b] has not been touched upon at all yet. showbizzmick, being the translation guru here, how would you translate: "Ben je [i]nog[/i] naar de stad geweest?" As opposed to: "Ben je naar de stad geweest?" Because I can't do it :D IMO no sentence can be translated with 100% accuracy, in fact not even from one native speaker to another since everyone has different experiences with the words. It will always have to be in the order of like 90% when you replace such a 'sentence modifier' in Dutch with a whole sentence in English, but here, I can't approximate it at all :D | |
| showbizzmick | Sunday 01st of May 2005 01:06:37 AM |
| - True, one can almost never achieve 100% accuracy in translation. A tiny portion always goes lost in translation. Now, about [b]nog[/b]. The meaning that pops into my head when reading your sentence is 'recent experience': the conversation partner wants an update of events since they last met, since a previously indicated time, or simply 'recently'. "Heb je Sylvie nog gezien?" [i]Have you seen Sylvie lately/recently[/since we last spoke]?[/i] "Ben je nog naar de stad geweest?" [i][color=purple][b]Have you been to the city lately/recently?[/b][/color][/i] BUT it could ALSO be interpreted as an inquiry into whether you ended up doing what you had been planning to do. For example, if A says to B: "I'm planning on going to the city later today to buy a pair of socks". When they meet again, say, the next day, B could ask: "Ben je (dan) nog naar de stad geweest?" which I would then translate as [i][color=purple][b]So, did you end up going to the city (after all)?[/b][/color][/i] A third interpretation is simply 'afterwards': For example on Saturday night, when I go out with my friends, I'm usually among the first to go home. A few days later I might ask one: "Zijn jullie nog lang gebleven?" means something like [i]Did you guys stay at the pub long after I was gone? [/i] However, an English speaker wouldn't put it that way, but rather: [i]So how long did YOU guys stay?[/i] "Ben je nog naar de stad geweest?" can also be interpreted like that: [i][color=purple][b]Did you go to the city afterwards?[/b][/color][/i] So as you can see, your phrase can be translated in at least three ways, depending on the context. | |
| Nostromo | Wednesday 04th of May 2005 08:04:24 PM |
| toch - I don't think stressing toch changes the meaning in any radical way. Toch, in the two sentences showbizzmick gave, still both mean: still', 'after all', 'yet'. There's a lot of hooey written about 'particles' and it confuses learners. | |
| Mathieu | Thursday 05th of May 2005 04:51:39 PM |
| - [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i] I don't think stressing toch changes the meaning in any radical way. Toch, in the two sentences showbizzmick gave, still both mean: still', 'after all', 'yet'. There's a lot of hooey written about 'particles' and it confuses learners. [/quote] They don't mean the same at all, the one indicates something happens against expectation, the other emphasizes that it happens no matter what, did you mean to say those are identical? Or do you mean stressing it doesn't distinguish between the two? In the first case, hmm I see, the line between the two meanings is a bit vague as for translation. But even if it can be solved with the same English word ('nevertheless' in most cases I think) it doesn't mean the concepts are identical just because English has one word for it. It does however take some of the burden away for our English speaking students :) As for stressing, you're right, it only seperates it from the "or are you?" sort of meaning, to distinguish between the remaining two (that can be stressed) depends on context or mood. We never said stressing it would solve the ambiguity, both are still available. By the way, I found another modifier: Ga je naar de stad? versus: Ga je [i]soms[/i] naar de stad? Strictly, 'soms' means 'sometimes'. That could apply here, but there's another meaning as well. I'd say it's something like "It is because you're going to the city?" ('soms' indicating the sentence is logically related to something else (like an earlier statement, or in response to someone packing his bags)) as well as "Do you happen to visit the city?" (this would be to make it more voluntarily, and thus more polite). | |
| Nostromo | Friday 06th of May 2005 07:06:28 PM |
| stressing toch - perhaps i was rash, but still (maar toch) the vague line remains. I have always considered the use of 'soms' in that context as meaning 'perchance', 'by any chance'. | |
| Mathieu | Friday 06th of May 2005 09:29:05 PM |
| - Yeah, that's what I meant with 'do you happen to...'. The other meaning will be obvious when you stress the object (for whatever reason :D) [b]"Waarom heb je zo'n haast? Ga je soms naar de stád?"[/b] ("Why are you in such a hurry? Are you going to the city or something?") In the example above 'soms' has that explaination sort of meaning. To get the 'by any chance' meaning, the 'do you happen to' one, stressing the verb is a good option, it seems: [b]"Gá je soms naar de stad? Kan je dan brood meenemen?"[/b] ("Are you by any chance visiting the city? Could you bring some bread then?") And the literal one you get by stressing 'soms' itself: [b]"Ga je sóms naar de stad?"[/b] ("Do you visit te city occasionaly?") This stress is not a definite thing here, it mostly depends on the context I think. Again, I should repeat myself here: Don't be like :O now. You'll get this with time and experience, and probably without notice. I just post this to 1. give you some insight in what happens in the nice language that Dutch is :) 2. give a more robust overview of those little modifiers, instead of vague feelings 3. summing up the possible meanings, so that you won't get confused if you come across one and don't understand it ("I thought 'soms' meant 'sometimes'? That doesn't make sense here"). It's by no means a lesson you should all learn by heart or anything :D | |
| showbizzmick | Sunday 08th of May 2005 02:56:33 AM |
| - Yup, 'soms' is another of those down-toners. It just makes whatever you're saying less direct. There's actually even a (pretty lame) joke about 'soms' , relying on its double meaning ('sometimes' or 'perchance/if you happen to...'): [color=maroon] Bent u soms mijnheer Kiekeboe? - Nee. Ik ben het [i]altijd[/i]. [/color][color=navy] *eruption of laughter*[/color] Translation: [size=1]The question, how it was intended:[/size] [i]Would you happen to be Mr Kiekeboe?[/i] [size=1]The question interpreted literally:[/size] [i]Are you Mr Kiekeboe sometimes?[/i] [size=1]Answer:[/size] No. I am him all the time. | |
| Nostromo | Monday 09th of May 2005 09:57:34 PM |
| Crazy Dutch - Here's one that really annoyed a friend of mine. He worked at the mail sorting office in Utrecht and wanted to borrow one of the trolleys. He asked: 'Mag ik het even gebruiken?' and after looking him up and down the other guy said: 'Heel even.' My friend didn't understand it even though he'd used the word 'even' himself with the same meaning! These two also caused trouble: - tot nog toe - zelfs nu nog. And there are dozens of these mad fragments. | |
| Mathieu | Tuesday 10th of May 2005 07:54:45 PM |
| - In 'mag ik het even gebruiken', 'even' is a sentence modifier, with a meaning that alters the sentence (precise effect of those modifiers was already discussed). In the answer 'heel even', it has the ordinary, translatable meaning, namely "for a short while". Thus, "heel even" would mean "for a very short while". So there's nothing new here, but I agree, it is perhaps difficult to see if those words should be interpreted as sentence modifiers or just as ordinary words with strict translatable meanings. 'tot nog toe' means 'up till now'. It's just an idiomatic phrase, it's not that 'nog' has another special meaning or something. It's idiomatic, cos you can't be creative and recombine it ("tot nog..." and then something else than 'toe'). The English version, as you can see, makes just as little sense. So this is just a phrase to memorize, no weird meanings of the words to go crazy about. In 'zelfs nu nog' the words have strict meanings; 'zelfs' means 'even' (so the English 'even', I mean :D), 'nog' means 'still', making 'zelfs nu nog' meaning something like 'even now still' (i have no good sounding translation for it, but this is understandable, I expect). Here again, nothing special going on, it's just that it's difficult to see when it's a sentence modifier and when it's just normal, like here. My advice would be, try to learn the strict meanings (nog=still, even=for a while), try to apply them to the sentence, and bear in mind that if it doesn't work out it must be one of those nasty modifiers, for which you will consult this topic, of course :D | |
| Friendship | Monday 23rd of January 2006 02:57:03 AM |
| Fantastic topic! - I just want to thank all of the people who took the time to explain, once and for all:), all that we Dutch students need to know about so many of those important, but little words-like wel,toch,maar,even,etc... Although I realize that learning all of the many intricate meanings of these little modifiers should not be my #1 priority in learning the language, I have reached the point in my studies where my lack of knowledge about these words was really holding me back from progressing:(... Having a good, basic Knowledge of these words is very important; and as was mentioned earlier on in this topic, many beginning Dutch language "Teach Yourself" courses do not explain the uses of these words nearly enough:( for beginning Dutch students to get a good, working grasp of them...Long live Dutch Phrasebase!!!!!! | |
| tomnj | Monday 23rd of January 2006 11:10:15 AM |
| - [quote][i]Originally posted by Nostromo[/i] These two also caused trouble: - tot nog toe - zelfs nu nog. And there are dozens of these mad fragments. [/quote] Correct me if I'm wrong but these translate as: - 'up till now' or 'up until now' - 'even NOW'(where in the English version 'now' gets the emphasis, usually enough so to eliminate the need for the word still as 'zelfs nu nog' could also be translated very literally as as 'even now still' or 'still, even now' with 'still' being nog's literal translation, but the saying loses intelligence when you throw 'still' into the English version. I don't think the Dutch version flies without the nog however.) This is definitly a topic to pay attention to. Teup may be right in saying this could potentially be the most difficult part of learning Dutch. I wouldn't get too worked up over them though. They are considered kind of a basic fundamental as opposed to an advanced feature of Dutch. What makes me say this? I've seen all of these words from wel to toch in books geared towards small children which made perfect sense to me since, as has been explained, these are tone-softening words for the most part. And we all know one of the first things kids learn when learning to speak is how to address others properly and politely. | |
