English "i Can" Vs "can I" Used When?

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Mathieu Saturday 03rd of December 2005 02:13:30 AM
"I can" vs "can I" - Tonight I heard something like this on TV, uttered by a native English narrator:
"Only when this is done [b]can we[/b] continue our journey"

I was rather surprised by that order, since I was lead to believe VSO (verb-subject-object) was restricted to questions in the English language. What do you think of this sentence?

Marta Saturday 03rd of December 2005 02:57:15 AM
- Isn't it inversion in order to emphasis something?

For example in sentence:
Suddenly down came the rain.

The prepositional phrase is emphasised before the verb and this involves putting the verb before the subject. (I took it from my Grammar book;))

So it seems that a speaker wanted to emphasise 'only when this is done' in your sentence, I guess.

Mathieu Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:06:45 AM
- Hmm, to emphasize, this operation would suffice:

We can continue our journey [when this is done]

---> [When this is done] we can continue our journey

So the inversion of "we" and "can" itself isn't needed (and since English is so rigid, I didn't expect it would bother to move..). Good example you got there, there too a normal topicalization (moving stuff to the front) would be like:

"Down, the rain came"

Without inverting the subject and verb. That's also how Yoda does it by the way :D

"To the Jedi temple, we must go" :)

These two are what I expected, but yeah, apparently it's grammatical after all to put the verb in front of it, in some cases at least.. but these bring me in doubt though:

"To the city must I go"
"Now can I try it"

Any native opinions on the mentioned phrases?

Megan Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:10:30 AM
"Only when this is done CAN WE continue our journey" - I believe, it is said in order to emphasize they CAN'T continue before THIS IS DONE.

I've heard it said in this context:
"Only when we have finished production, we can give you the number of completed pieces."

Mathieu Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:14:14 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Megan[/i]

I've heard it said in this context:
"Only when we have finished production, we can give you the number of completed pieces."
[/quote]

But that's just it. In your example the order is normal, namely subject-verb ("we can"). In mine, it's verb-subject ("can we"). And that's the thing that puzzles me..

"Only when this is done [u]can we[/u] continue our journey"
Versus
"Only when this is done [u]we can[/u] continue our journey"

Megan Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:15:04 AM
- Sorry - this is sentence a native English person said:

"Only when we have finished production, CAN WE give you the number of completed pieces."

Mathieu Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:20:18 AM
- Ah, that's more like it :) Hmm yeah, seems it really is common after all, we've got ourselves 3 sources now.. funny, because I still think "this way can we ..." is ungrammatical, I'm possibly wrong, since it appears rather often on Google, though I'm not sure how often it's by natives. And perhaps it could be dialect bound too..

Megan Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:24:56 AM
- Teup, in any case let's wait for the answer of a native speaking person ! :-))

Marta Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:26:40 AM
- Only that I doubt that native speakers can decide if the thing is correct or not. The only thing they can do is say if they use it or not. I might be wrong.

Psyche Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:33:47 AM
- Must be the same as in books....I got corrected when I wrote something like this: "Come here, [i]said[/i] she"

I knew it was more correct to write "Come here, she [i]said[/i].

I read it my former way in several books though...maybe it is just a dialect thing as Teup suggested...:)

*enough wanna-be-consistent* :p

Mathieu Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:38:45 AM
- I remember that order popped up in a paper I had to read, written by some Dutchman, my teacher used to be his friend and told that he used to correct his English, but he explained that he didn't yet know him by the time that article was written :p But he did mention that it was wrong when he cited something that happened to have "can we" in it.

Hmm natives can decide, it's their language, so whatever their intuitions are, they're correct, whether we like it or not :D Well, everyone has a slightly different personal "dialect", but if they'll all agree, there's nothing we can do about it ;)

leobloom Saturday 03rd of December 2005 05:17:44 AM
- My trusted grammar says that inversion betweensubject and verb can be only used to enphasize the sentece. But here it just gives examples taken from books and stories, no everyday speaking so I don't think that's a very common use...
ah, it also says it's used in the direct speech:
"leave it alone" said the knight.

joziboy Saturday 03rd of December 2005 07:17:12 AM
- well you've finally got a native, but I don't know all the grammatical names or rules for English precisely because it's my home language, so not sure I'll be much use! :)

I can definitely say though, that it doesn't sound wrong to me to say 'only when this is done can we continue'. It is definitely used in English by native speakers, but I have no idea why

Edit: PS, I've been saying it over and over in my head, and it actually sounds a lot [b]better[/b] to say 'only when this is done [b]can we[/b] move on' than it does to say 'only when this is done we can continue'. That second one sounds like two seperate sentences for some reason. Maybe it's something to do with the future tense? so the 'we continue' is one chunk, and the verb links the previous bit to it? I'm rambling :)

jameilious Saturday 03rd of December 2005 08:47:21 AM
the word only - when we use the word only at the beginning of a sentence we often use the verb after the comma, it emphasises what the only is used for. Hope this helps im native :D

jameilious Saturday 03rd of December 2005 08:50:02 AM
:D - yes that is certainly it. Try using the word maybe and it doesnt fit.

ONLY when I finish this can I go out
MAYBE when I finish this I can go out

its automatic for natives but I spotted the repeat of only :)

NateD Saturday 03rd of December 2005 08:53:57 AM
- Joziboy is thinking in the right direction.

"Only when this is done we can move on." could be considered run-on sentences- in any case, that's what it [i]sounds[/i] like. While logical, it's grammatically (and audibly) vague.

To the English ear, it sounds messy. So we say: "Only when this is done can we move on.", which is a more ordered way of forming it.

It's a common form, and used by natives, but it's largely limited to subjunctive and direct use, like in the sources given. It can also be used in certain poetic forms, where the language isn't nearly as rigid.

As for only/maybe: "Only" sounds much more dependent on what follows than "maybe". "Perhaps" is also less conclusive. It's hard to form a rule about it, but it should be enough to use the inverted order with only "only".

jameilious Saturday 03rd of December 2005 09:12:12 AM
ha - well now we have made you more confused probably. Only if you understood this may you understand how a native speaker speaks, truly. Sorry I'm a teenager I couldn't resist

Peter_fra_Oz Saturday 03rd of December 2005 11:04:30 AM
- I CAN ...
used in a statement of fact

I can jump over the cliff

CAN I ...
used when questioning yourself
or in American English form, used when asking permission
(MAY I is the better form, British English)

Can I jump over the cliff? hmmmm better not press my luck.
Can I have another item, please?

[quote]"To the city must I go"[/quote]

Would make you sound like a hilly billy (Bauer) =), not proper form unless you are a little child pretending you are a comic book super hero and want to sound funny.

[quote]"Now can I try it"[/quote]

Permission request. Reminds me, personally, of a child scenario where the parent forbade the child to try IT until after another task(s) was(were) performed first.

[quote]"To the Jedi temple, we must go"[/quote]

Ok now you are back in kid comic book land again =)

[quote]We can continue our journey [when this is done][/quote]

This sounds fine, preferred among adults.

[quote][When this is done] we can continue our journey[/quote]

You are emphasising the pre-requisite tasks again as if you are talking to a child and want to point out that A, B, and C need to happen first so that the journey can be continued.

Save this one for when you have kids in the back of the car constantly asking "Are we there yet?"

When you have eaten all your vegetables, you may then have a piece of pie.

Try to use MAY more often in permission requests unless you want to adopt the American form of saying in which case stick to CAN, although best if you could adopt and switch depending on the person you are speaking to as people outside of the States think the CAN form sounds bad.

fungi Saturday 03rd of December 2005 11:11:09 AM
- Either order is fine as long as your punct. is correct.

fungi Saturday 03rd of December 2005 11:27:25 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i]

Tonight I heard something like this on TV, uttered by a native English narrator:
"Only when this is done [b]can we[/b] continue our journey"

I was rather surprised by that order, since I was lead to believe VSO (verb-subject-object) was restricted to questions in the English language. What do you think of this sentence?[/quote]

2nd post. As you probably know the English language has exceptions to pretty much every rule so you can either say, "[b]We can only[/b] continue our journey when this is done." Or you could say,"Only when this is done[b],[/b] can we continue our journey." The comma is the key. Either way is fine

Greta Saturday 03rd of December 2005 12:18:16 PM
Why, it is an example of an anastrophe!..and stylistic choices -
"Only when we have finished production, CAN WE give you the number of completed pieces."
”’Come here’, she said.”

An Anastrophe is an inversion of natural word order (thus ‘she said’ becomes ‘said she’). It is a literary device used mainly for the sake of emphasis or to help establish tone.

They really are used often in common English, only most English speakers fail to notice them anymore because they have become habitual.

In the first case, “Only when” signifies a condition. USUALLY when a condition is presented there is a chance of subject/verb inversion. (ie “Only after the food is cooked can we dine together.”) Without the inversion, it would read “only…….we can dine together” which sounds(or should sound) really odd to native English speakers. So we invert.

”Said she” on the other hand seems to be a stylistic choice. Usually in a literary work, the author would take into account both syntax and diction in order to best serve his purpose. Inverting natural word order often creates a playful or whimsical tone, but it can also be used in other ways. Similarly, some English speakers orally invert the subject/verb when feeling playful, or desire simply to fool around with their native tongue.

I hope this helped!

:)
-Greta

Mathieu Saturday 03rd of December 2005 05:12:15 PM
- Thanks alot people :)

So it probably just has to do with length. Because since this is OK

"Only when this is done can I go"

And I made a technically analogous sentence:

"Now can I go"

And I hypothesized that one would be out (people please, don't confuse it with the reading in which "now" is a filler and the sentence as a question, I intended it as a time aspect here).

So because:
"Only when this is done I can go" --> good
"Only when this is done can I go" --> good
And:
"To the city I must go" --> good
"To the city must I go" --> X

I think it simply has to do something with the length of the phrase. In my native language it is an obligatory movement, but I try to contain myself when resorting to English :D But now I know it indeed is possible with at least the long ones, heck, it even makes it sound better, that's probably because otherwise the verb gets delayed for really really long :)

joziboy Saturday 03rd of December 2005 09:00:23 PM
- Hmm, no I think it is something to do with the 'only' as Greta said Teup, because you'd say:
When this is done, we can move on.
But
Only when this is done can we move on
Saying 'Only when this is done we can move on' sounds wrong. The second bit doesn't sound related to the first bit. Greta's explanation is pretty good actually. Thanks for starting the topic - I'd never even noticed we inverted the subject and verb :)

Mathieu Sunday 04th of December 2005 01:29:55 AM
- Ah yes.. I noticed that in situations other than 'only' it indeed sounds wrong to invert it (but I couldn't have guessed that [i]not[/i] inverting it in the cases with 'only' would make it sound awkward).

What the cause for this could be (if it extends to other words than 'only' and stuff, and how we could generalize the rule) I don't know, I'll give it some thought (or in case someone else happens to have ideas on it in the meantime, go ahead of course.. :D)

NateD Sunday 04th of December 2005 01:40:48 AM
- "We can only continue our journey when this is done." is technically correct, but would be considered poorly phrased. It could be saying: "When our journey is done, we can only continue.", excluding all other options besides "continue", as well as well as potentially shifting the whole logical structure... which is quite different than the intended meaning. Such as: "When this is done, we can only continue our journey."

It can be used and understood perfectly in spoken language, but you should probably avoid it in writing.

NateD Sunday 04th of December 2005 01:48:09 AM
- This is just a nscent thought, about which I'm not convinced: Perhaps "only" uses the inverted/emphatic order because it's used less commonly in independent situations.

"When can we go to the store?"
"Perhaps when this is done."

or

"When can we go to the store?"
"Maybe when this is finished."

but

"When can we go to the store?"
"When this is done."

the 'only' being implied, which is, to my knowledge, the most common use and certainly the most neutral. You could also say:

"When can we go to the store?"
"Only when you're done with your room."

the 'only' being stronger and often more hostile than the sentence without.

Bringing the verb closer to the 'action' in the sentence sounds more immediate, 'in character' with the strength of the word 'only'. It helps to balance it out. This argument is, of course, a stylistic one, and not a grammatical one...and, again, nascent thought! But it could mean something.

Mathieu Sunday 04th of December 2005 04:37:30 AM
- Hmm, in all your phrases
1. all questions are VSO (verb-subject-object)
2. all statements are SVO (subject-verb-object)

Which was a completely predictable pattern.. it is as I thought it'd be at first, though I've learned here that VSO is also possible in statements - sometimes, and according to at least some natives. I know all about the topicalizing that's going on in these sentences, my particular point of interest was this (so, given that topicalization):

"Only when this is done [u]we can[/u] continue our journey"
"Only when this is done [u]can we[/u] continue our journey"

So purely the subject-verb thing. joziboy and Greta prefer the latter. Which one do you prefer? Do you share the view that the former sounds rigid, or does the second sound more awkward to you? Or are you OK with both?

lexicon Sunday 04th of December 2005 06:44:30 AM
- The former does sound like two different sentences. The first sentence becomes a fragment when we add a period.

"Only when this is done. We can continue our journey."

If you were to insist on using the "we can" word order, you would put it at the beginning of the sentence:

"We can continue our journey only when this is done."

You should also note that native speakers (at least in New England) don't usually [i]say[/i] "Only when this is done can we continue our journey." It is more often written than spoken that way.

I have an odd sense of humor, so I sometimes speak the way things are formally written.

Edit: In case you were wondering, here is a more natural way to say it:
"We can't continue until this is done."

NateD Sunday 04th of December 2005 12:27:58 PM
- Lexicon is quite right in saying that "Only when this is done..." is more formal. I agree with his example.

Myself, I prefer the latter, as does standard written English. I don't think I've ever seen a citable example using the former.

joziboy Sunday 04th of December 2005 07:15:59 PM
- Lol, nah my teacher was always saying that at school: 'only when you've all finished this problem can you go out for break' The big old meanie :)

Phrasebase Archive
	Mathieu	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 02:13:30 AM
	"I can" vs "can I" - Tonight I heard something like this on TV, uttered by a native English narrator: "Only when this is done [b]can we[/b] continue our journey" I was rather surprised by that order, since I was lead to believe VSO (verb-subject-object) was restricted to questions in the English language. What do you think of this sentence?
	Marta	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 02:57:15 AM
	- Isn't it inversion in order to emphasis something? For example in sentence: Suddenly down came the rain. The prepositional phrase is emphasised before the verb and this involves putting the verb before the subject. (I took it from my Grammar book;)) So it seems that a speaker wanted to emphasise 'only when this is done' in your sentence, I guess.
	Mathieu	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:06:45 AM
	- Hmm, to emphasize, this operation would suffice: We can continue our journey [when this is done] ---> [When this is done] we can continue our journey So the inversion of "we" and "can" itself isn't needed (and since English is so rigid, I didn't expect it would bother to move..). Good example you got there, there too a normal topicalization (moving stuff to the front) would be like: "Down, the rain came" Without inverting the subject and verb. That's also how Yoda does it by the way :D "To the Jedi temple, we must go" :) These two are what I expected, but yeah, apparently it's grammatical after all to put the verb in front of it, in some cases at least.. but these bring me in doubt though: "To the city must I go" "Now can I try it" Any native opinions on the mentioned phrases?
	Megan	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:10:30 AM
	"Only when this is done CAN WE continue our journey" - I believe, it is said in order to emphasize they CAN'T continue before THIS IS DONE. I've heard it said in this context: "Only when we have finished production, we can give you the number of completed pieces."
	Mathieu	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:14:14 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Megan[/i] I've heard it said in this context: "Only when we have finished production, we can give you the number of completed pieces." [/quote] But that's just it. In your example the order is normal, namely subject-verb ("we can"). In mine, it's verb-subject ("can we"). And that's the thing that puzzles me.. "Only when this is done [u]can we[/u] continue our journey" Versus "Only when this is done [u]we can[/u] continue our journey"
	Megan	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:15:04 AM
	- Sorry - this is sentence a native English person said: "Only when we have finished production, CAN WE give you the number of completed pieces."
	Mathieu	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:20:18 AM
	- Ah, that's more like it :) Hmm yeah, seems it really is common after all, we've got ourselves 3 sources now.. funny, because I still think "this way can we ..." is ungrammatical, I'm possibly wrong, since it appears rather often on Google, though I'm not sure how often it's by natives. And perhaps it could be dialect bound too..
	Megan	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:24:56 AM
	- Teup, in any case let's wait for the answer of a native speaking person ! :-))
	Marta	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:26:40 AM
	- Only that I doubt that native speakers can decide if the thing is correct or not. The only thing they can do is say if they use it or not. I might be wrong.
	Psyche	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:33:47 AM
	- Must be the same as in books....I got corrected when I wrote something like this: "Come here, [i]said[/i] she" I knew it was more correct to write "Come here, she [i]said[/i]. I read it my former way in several books though...maybe it is just a dialect thing as Teup suggested...:) enough wanna-be-consistent :p
	Mathieu	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 03:38:45 AM
	- I remember that order popped up in a paper I had to read, written by some Dutchman, my teacher used to be his friend and told that he used to correct his English, but he explained that he didn't yet know him by the time that article was written :p But he did mention that it was wrong when he cited something that happened to have "can we" in it. Hmm natives can decide, it's their language, so whatever their intuitions are, they're correct, whether we like it or not :D Well, everyone has a slightly different personal "dialect", but if they'll all agree, there's nothing we can do about it ;)
	leobloom	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 05:17:44 AM
	- My trusted grammar says that inversion betweensubject and verb can be only used to enphasize the sentece. But here it just gives examples taken from books and stories, no everyday speaking so I don't think that's a very common use... ah, it also says it's used in the direct speech: "leave it alone" said the knight.
	joziboy	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 07:17:12 AM
	- well you've finally got a native, but I don't know all the grammatical names or rules for English precisely because it's my home language, so not sure I'll be much use! :) I can definitely say though, that it doesn't sound wrong to me to say 'only when this is done can we continue'. It is definitely used in English by native speakers, but I have no idea why Edit: PS, I've been saying it over and over in my head, and it actually sounds a lot [b]better[/b] to say 'only when this is done [b]can we[/b] move on' than it does to say 'only when this is done we can continue'. That second one sounds like two seperate sentences for some reason. Maybe it's something to do with the future tense? so the 'we continue' is one chunk, and the verb links the previous bit to it? I'm rambling :)
	jameilious	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 08:47:21 AM
	the word only - when we use the word only at the beginning of a sentence we often use the verb after the comma, it emphasises what the only is used for. Hope this helps im native :D
	jameilious	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 08:50:02 AM
	:D - yes that is certainly it. Try using the word maybe and it doesnt fit. ONLY when I finish this can I go out MAYBE when I finish this I can go out its automatic for natives but I spotted the repeat of only :)
	NateD	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 08:53:57 AM
	- Joziboy is thinking in the right direction. "Only when this is done we can move on." could be considered run-on sentences- in any case, that's what it [i]sounds[/i] like. While logical, it's grammatically (and audibly) vague. To the English ear, it sounds messy. So we say: "Only when this is done can we move on.", which is a more ordered way of forming it. It's a common form, and used by natives, but it's largely limited to subjunctive and direct use, like in the sources given. It can also be used in certain poetic forms, where the language isn't nearly as rigid. As for only/maybe: "Only" sounds much more dependent on what follows than "maybe". "Perhaps" is also less conclusive. It's hard to form a rule about it, but it should be enough to use the inverted order with only "only".
	jameilious	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 09:12:12 AM
	ha - well now we have made you more confused probably. Only if you understood this may you understand how a native speaker speaks, truly. Sorry I'm a teenager I couldn't resist
	Peter_fra_Oz	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 11:04:30 AM
	- I CAN ... used in a statement of fact I can jump over the cliff CAN I ... used when questioning yourself or in American English form, used when asking permission (MAY I is the better form, British English) Can I jump over the cliff? hmmmm better not press my luck. Can I have another item, please? [quote]"To the city must I go"[/quote] Would make you sound like a hilly billy (Bauer) =), not proper form unless you are a little child pretending you are a comic book super hero and want to sound funny. [quote]"Now can I try it"[/quote] Permission request. Reminds me, personally, of a child scenario where the parent forbade the child to try IT until after another task(s) was(were) performed first. [quote]"To the Jedi temple, we must go"[/quote] Ok now you are back in kid comic book land again =) [quote]We can continue our journey [when this is done][/quote] This sounds fine, preferred among adults. [quote][When this is done] we can continue our journey[/quote] You are emphasising the pre-requisite tasks again as if you are talking to a child and want to point out that A, B, and C need to happen first so that the journey can be continued. Save this one for when you have kids in the back of the car constantly asking "Are we there yet?" When you have eaten all your vegetables, you may then have a piece of pie. Try to use MAY more often in permission requests unless you want to adopt the American form of saying in which case stick to CAN, although best if you could adopt and switch depending on the person you are speaking to as people outside of the States think the CAN form sounds bad.
	fungi	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 11:11:09 AM
	- Either order is fine as long as your punct. is correct.
	fungi	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 11:27:25 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i] Tonight I heard something like this on TV, uttered by a native English narrator: "Only when this is done [b]can we[/b] continue our journey" I was rather surprised by that order, since I was lead to believe VSO (verb-subject-object) was restricted to questions in the English language. What do you think of this sentence?[/quote] 2nd post. As you probably know the English language has exceptions to pretty much every rule so you can either say, "[b]We can only[/b] continue our journey when this is done." Or you could say,"Only when this is done[b],[/b] can we continue our journey." The comma is the key. Either way is fine
	Greta	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 12:18:16 PM
	Why, it is an example of an anastrophe!..and stylistic choices - "Only when we have finished production, CAN WE give you the number of completed pieces." ”’Come here’, she said.” An Anastrophe is an inversion of natural word order (thus ‘she said’ becomes ‘said she’). It is a literary device used mainly for the sake of emphasis or to help establish tone. They really are used often in common English, only most English speakers fail to notice them anymore because they have become habitual. In the first case, “Only when” signifies a condition. USUALLY when a condition is presented there is a chance of subject/verb inversion. (ie “Only after the food is cooked can we dine together.”) Without the inversion, it would read “only…….we can dine together” which sounds(or should sound) really odd to native English speakers. So we invert. ”Said she” on the other hand seems to be a stylistic choice. Usually in a literary work, the author would take into account both syntax and diction in order to best serve his purpose. Inverting natural word order often creates a playful or whimsical tone, but it can also be used in other ways. Similarly, some English speakers orally invert the subject/verb when feeling playful, or desire simply to fool around with their native tongue. I hope this helped! :) -Greta
	Mathieu	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 05:12:15 PM
	- Thanks alot people :) So it probably just has to do with length. Because since this is OK "Only when this is done can I go" And I made a technically analogous sentence: "Now can I go" And I hypothesized that one would be out (people please, don't confuse it with the reading in which "now" is a filler and the sentence as a question, I intended it as a time aspect here). So because: "Only when this is done I can go" --> good "Only when this is done can I go" --> good And: "To the city I must go" --> good "To the city must I go" --> X I think it simply has to do something with the length of the phrase. In my native language it is an obligatory movement, but I try to contain myself when resorting to English :D But now I know it indeed is possible with at least the long ones, heck, it even makes it sound better, that's probably because otherwise the verb gets delayed for really really long :)
	joziboy	Saturday 03rd of December 2005 09:00:23 PM
	- Hmm, no I think it is something to do with the 'only' as Greta said Teup, because you'd say: When this is done, we can move on. But Only when this is done can we move on Saying 'Only when this is done we can move on' sounds wrong. The second bit doesn't sound related to the first bit. Greta's explanation is pretty good actually. Thanks for starting the topic - I'd never even noticed we inverted the subject and verb :)
	Mathieu	Sunday 04th of December 2005 01:29:55 AM
	- Ah yes.. I noticed that in situations other than 'only' it indeed sounds wrong to invert it (but I couldn't have guessed that [i]not[/i] inverting it in the cases with 'only' would make it sound awkward). What the cause for this could be (if it extends to other words than 'only' and stuff, and how we could generalize the rule) I don't know, I'll give it some thought (or in case someone else happens to have ideas on it in the meantime, go ahead of course.. :D)
	NateD	Sunday 04th of December 2005 01:40:48 AM
	- "We can only continue our journey when this is done." is technically correct, but would be considered poorly phrased. It could be saying: "When our journey is done, we can only continue.", excluding all other options besides "continue", as well as well as potentially shifting the whole logical structure... which is quite different than the intended meaning. Such as: "When this is done, we can only continue our journey." It can be used and understood perfectly in spoken language, but you should probably avoid it in writing.
	NateD	Sunday 04th of December 2005 01:48:09 AM
	- This is just a nscent thought, about which I'm not convinced: Perhaps "only" uses the inverted/emphatic order because it's used less commonly in independent situations. "When can we go to the store?" "Perhaps when this is done." or "When can we go to the store?" "Maybe when this is finished." but "When can we go to the store?" "When this is done." the 'only' being implied, which is, to my knowledge, the most common use and certainly the most neutral. You could also say: "When can we go to the store?" "Only when you're done with your room." the 'only' being stronger and often more hostile than the sentence without. Bringing the verb closer to the 'action' in the sentence sounds more immediate, 'in character' with the strength of the word 'only'. It helps to balance it out. This argument is, of course, a stylistic one, and not a grammatical one...and, again, nascent thought! But it could mean something.
	Mathieu	Sunday 04th of December 2005 04:37:30 AM
	- Hmm, in all your phrases 1. all questions are VSO (verb-subject-object) 2. all statements are SVO (subject-verb-object) Which was a completely predictable pattern.. it is as I thought it'd be at first, though I've learned here that VSO is also possible in statements - sometimes, and according to at least some natives. I know all about the topicalizing that's going on in these sentences, my particular point of interest was this (so, given that topicalization): "Only when this is done [u]we can[/u] continue our journey" "Only when this is done [u]can we[/u] continue our journey" So purely the subject-verb thing. joziboy and Greta prefer the latter. Which one do you prefer? Do you share the view that the former sounds rigid, or does the second sound more awkward to you? Or are you OK with both?
	lexicon	Sunday 04th of December 2005 06:44:30 AM
	- The former does sound like two different sentences. The first sentence becomes a fragment when we add a period. "Only when this is done. We can continue our journey." If you were to insist on using the "we can" word order, you would put it at the beginning of the sentence: "We can continue our journey only when this is done." You should also note that native speakers (at least in New England) don't usually [i]say[/i] "Only when this is done can we continue our journey." It is more often written than spoken that way. I have an odd sense of humor, so I sometimes speak the way things are formally written. Edit: In case you were wondering, here is a more natural way to say it: "We can't continue until this is done."
	NateD	Sunday 04th of December 2005 12:27:58 PM
	- Lexicon is quite right in saying that "Only when this is done..." is more formal. I agree with his example. Myself, I prefer the latter, as does standard written English. I don't think I've ever seen a citable example using the former.
	joziboy	Sunday 04th of December 2005 07:15:59 PM
	- Lol, nah my teacher was always saying that at school: 'only when you've all finished this problem can you go out for break' The big old meanie :)