Farsi Plural & Demonstrative Pronouns A Few Things That Remain Unclear To Me

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argaz Sunday 22nd of January 2006 10:47:06 PM
Plural & Demonstrative Pronouns - سلام,

I'm learning فارسی with the help of Iraj Bashiri's textbook 'Persian For Beginners'.

I have two questions concerning plural in Persian.

First, should the -ها ending be written separately after the noun or should it be connected to the noun? e.g.

کتاب ها or کتابها

My second question is a bit more complicated. I'll demonstrate my problem with an example (from Bashiri's book):

درخت --> tree
درخت ها --> trees

این درخت --> this tree
آن درخت --> that tree

So far, no problem. But now, here it comes:

این درخت ها --> these trees
آن درختان --> those trees

Why isn't 'those trees' written as آن درخت ها ?

'آن چشمان' is yet another example of this.

Could someone explain why some words change their ending to ان in the plural when used with the demonstrative pronoun آن?

,متشکـّرم
argaz

Paul8 Monday 23rd of January 2006 09:49:23 AM
- this is because those endings were borrowed from Arabic. btw, I have used Bashiri's book too, exept I have used the pdf files version instead of an actual textbook, and the pdf files included descriptions for the ان endings. It is used on any body part that comes in pairs, (hence eyes: چشمان) on animate things (people) and some that are kind of animate but not really (like plants because they have cells)

daristani Monday 23rd of January 2006 07:48:26 PM
questions re plurals and demonstratives - As to your first question, the plural -ha can be written either joined to or separate from the noun it pluralizes; since writing it separately is a bit clearer (in that the original form of the noun remains unchanged), that seems to be the trend these days. But both are correct.

As for the -an versus -ha plurals, -an has essentially died out except in certain set phrases and when efforts are being made to use a more "classical" form. It used to be that -an was used for animates (such as people, etc.), as well as for certain words such as those ending in -ande, etc. (e.g., parandegan = "birds"). There were even some distinctions between genders (e.g., xanomha va aghayan). But nowadays -ha is used almost universally, and it's definitely the normal plural to use for "trees", whether "these trees" or "those trees".

argaz Tuesday 24th of January 2006 05:00:07 AM
- Thank you both for replying! I've found Bashiri's full explanation concerning the -an plural in lesson 4. Btw, I actually use the pdf version of the book too. ;)

Daristani, I was wondering, is the -an plural form still used in written Persian or has is it really completely out of use these days - both in speech and written language?

Would it be advisable to learn the -an exceptions, or is it a waste of time and effort to study them?

daristani Tuesday 24th of January 2006 09:00:17 AM
Older plurals - Hi!

I don't claim to perfect knowledge of Persian (I'm self-taught myself), but as far as I can tell it would be enough merely to recognize these older plurals in -an when they're used, but in terms of your own speaking, using -ha all the time would be sufficient. In other words, "learning" in terms of recognition when you run across them, but not worrying about the rules for forming them yourself, because normally you won't have to.

(The Arabic, or "broken" plurals, are still used to a fair degree in set phrases and expressions, and in formal writing, but even with those, I think it's enough most of the time just to be able to recognize them when you come across them, and to use -ha when you're pluralizing things yourself.)

argaz Wednesday 25th of January 2006 07:21:08 PM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by daristani[/i]

Hi!

I don't claim to perfect knowledge of Persian (I'm self-taught myself), but as far as I can tell it would be enough merely to recognize these older plurals in -an when they're used, but in terms of your own speaking, using -ha all the time would be sufficient. In other words, "learning" in terms of recognition when you run across them, but not worrying about the rules for forming them yourself, because normally you won't have to.

(The Arabic, or "broken" plurals, are still used to a fair degree in set phrases and expressions, and in formal writing, but even with those, I think it's enough most of the time just to be able to recognize them when you come across them, and to use -ha when you're pluralizing things yourself.)[/quote]

Okay, خیلی متشکـّرم for your advice!

argaz

Phrasebase Archive
	argaz	Sunday 22nd of January 2006 10:47:06 PM
	Plural & Demonstrative Pronouns - سلام, I'm learning فارسی with the help of Iraj Bashiri's textbook 'Persian For Beginners'. I have two questions concerning plural in Persian. First, should the -ها ending be written separately after the noun or should it be connected to the noun? e.g. کتاب ها or کتابها My second question is a bit more complicated. I'll demonstrate my problem with an example (from Bashiri's book): درخت --> tree درخت ها --> trees این درخت --> this tree آن درخت --> that tree So far, no problem. But now, here it comes: این درخت ها --> these trees آن درختان --> those trees Why isn't 'those trees' written as آن درخت ها ? 'آن چشمان' is yet another example of this. Could someone explain why some words change their ending to ان in the plural when used with the demonstrative pronoun آن? ,متشکـّرم argaz
	Paul8	Monday 23rd of January 2006 09:49:23 AM
	- this is because those endings were borrowed from Arabic. btw, I have used Bashiri's book too, exept I have used the pdf files version instead of an actual textbook, and the pdf files included descriptions for the ان endings. It is used on any body part that comes in pairs, (hence eyes: چشمان) on animate things (people) and some that are kind of animate but not really (like plants because they have cells)
	daristani	Monday 23rd of January 2006 07:48:26 PM
	questions re plurals and demonstratives - As to your first question, the plural -ha can be written either joined to or separate from the noun it pluralizes; since writing it separately is a bit clearer (in that the original form of the noun remains unchanged), that seems to be the trend these days. But both are correct. As for the -an versus -ha plurals, -an has essentially died out except in certain set phrases and when efforts are being made to use a more "classical" form. It used to be that -an was used for animates (such as people, etc.), as well as for certain words such as those ending in -ande, etc. (e.g., parandegan = "birds"). There were even some distinctions between genders (e.g., xanomha va aghayan). But nowadays -ha is used almost universally, and it's definitely the normal plural to use for "trees", whether "these trees" or "those trees".
	argaz	Tuesday 24th of January 2006 05:00:07 AM
	- Thank you both for replying! I've found Bashiri's full explanation concerning the -an plural in lesson 4. Btw, I actually use the pdf version of the book too. ;) Daristani, I was wondering, is the -an plural form still used in written Persian or has is it really completely out of use these days - both in speech and written language? Would it be advisable to learn the -an exceptions, or is it a waste of time and effort to study them?
	daristani	Tuesday 24th of January 2006 09:00:17 AM
	Older plurals - Hi! I don't claim to perfect knowledge of Persian (I'm self-taught myself), but as far as I can tell it would be enough merely to recognize these older plurals in -an when they're used, but in terms of your own speaking, using -ha all the time would be sufficient. In other words, "learning" in terms of recognition when you run across them, but not worrying about the rules for forming them yourself, because normally you won't have to. (The Arabic, or "broken" plurals, are still used to a fair degree in set phrases and expressions, and in formal writing, but even with those, I think it's enough most of the time just to be able to recognize them when you come across them, and to use -ha when you're pluralizing things yourself.)
	argaz	Wednesday 25th of January 2006 07:21:08 PM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by daristani[/i] Hi! I don't claim to perfect knowledge of Persian (I'm self-taught myself), but as far as I can tell it would be enough merely to recognize these older plurals in -an when they're used, but in terms of your own speaking, using -ha all the time would be sufficient. In other words, "learning" in terms of recognition when you run across them, but not worrying about the rules for forming them yourself, because normally you won't have to. (The Arabic, or "broken" plurals, are still used to a fair degree in set phrases and expressions, and in formal writing, but even with those, I think it's enough most of the time just to be able to recognize them when you come across them, and to use -ha when you're pluralizing things yourself.)[/quote] Okay, خیلی متشکـّرم for your advice! argaz