Greek Please, Help With Name And Short Phrases Author Needs Some Help

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ScottyDM Sunday 27th of November 2005 07:55:10 PM
Please, help with name and short phrases -
OK, now I’m confused. I’m writing a story and I have this character who wants to use a Greek phrase or two.

I’m writing speculative fiction (sort of like science fiction) and I have this race of genetically engineered foxes who have been assigned family names based on famous inventors or aviators. So I have been happily creating families and assigning them names.

[b]First:[/b] My heroine is of the family Archytas: named for Archytas of Tarentum, a mathematician and scientist who built and “flew” a rocket propelled wooden bird approximately 400 B.C. Actually the bird was probably suspended by wires and used steam, but this predates Hero’s steam engine by almost 450 years. Her full name is Aphrodite Sofia Archytas, but professionally she goes by A. Sofia Archytas, or just Sofia Archytas.

[b]First Question:[/b] Does Aphrodite Sofia Archytas seem like a reasonable Greek name to you? I think Archytas was the guy's given name, not a family name. Feel free to make suggestions.

[b]Second:[/b] Things get confusing (at least they do for me).

Panos74, I found a post of yours that linked to a Greek/English dictionary ([u][url]http://www.in.gr/[/url][/u]) that is really awesome! Better than the web translators. So I’ve been able to figure out the following:

Generally speaking, a fox is: αλεπού
An adult female fox is: θηλυκή αλεπού
An adult male fox is: αρσενική αλεπού
A baby fox is: αλεπουδάκι

Is this correct? Also, I’ve been studying your Lesson 1 and 2 posts and I don’t quite get the accents on ύ, ή, and ά. Plus I’ve seen other posts about sex and tense and whatnot. Do these affect nouns? Help!

What I’m looking for is a way to rewrite these using the Roman alphabet. On one website about foxes I found the Romanized spelling of alepou for αλεπού, which all makes sense to me but the last letter. But first, are these phrases what I’m looking for?

My heroine says to my main character: “I wanted to find out what kind of _________ could dare to propose such a plan.” What I’m looking for is the unmistakable sense that she is referring to a male fox, not just any fox.

[b]Second Question:[/b] How do I fill in the blank, above? What if I say: “I wanted to find out what kind of αρσενική αλεπού could dare to propose such a plan,” but with a Romanized spelling (of course). Or would you suggest something else?

[b]Third:[/b] This gets really confusing for me, but I suppose if you know what you’re doing it is probably the most fun of the three.

My heroine says to my main character: “You know, since my ________, Charles, passed away, I’ve had several suitors. But none had your qualities.” She is talking about her late husband, whom she had been very fond of. I want her to say something like “beloved manly fox” or “beloved big fox”. Some sense that she thought he was masculine and strong. This would be a sort of nickname she’s made up for him.

I think somewhere in there I can use αλεπού (or some variation of it). Would it make any sense to say: “my μεγάλος αλεπού”? Or maybe: “my αντρίκιος αλεπού”? Is there some way to combine and simplify these words? Something like: “my αγαπητός αντρίκιος αλεπού” spells out the full idea, but the grammar is probably horrible and thee words are too much. American readers’ eyes will glaze over and they will start to drool if I put three non-English words in a row. Of course I could just say: “my beloved αντρίκιος αλεπού,” but Romanized.

[b]Third Question:[/b] What do you suggest to fill in the blank? And what is the Romanized spelling.

Help please. I’m really flying blind here. [b]Thanks a million![/b]

Scotty

Panos Monday 28th of November 2005 06:15:12 AM
- :) This is fun. I 'd love to read the story when it ends.

Now, the inventor, Archytas from Taranta, never heard of him. But, anyway, it could be a Greek surname, although it is quite unusual. Greeks normaly don't have middle names (actually i do but i am an exception ). So, you could pick one of the two names for your heroine (or you can use both ). So, let's say that the name of the heroine is Sofia Archyta. (caution: the final 's' is omitted for female ).

[quote]
Generally speaking, a fox is: αλεπού
An adult female fox is: θηλυκή αλεπού
An adult male fox is: αρσενική αλεπού
A baby fox is: αλεπουδάκι
[/quote]

Yes, they are all correct. See, in Greek the word for fox is inherately female '[b]η[/b] αλεπού'(but doesn't say anything about the sex of a specific fox).
[quote]
My heroine says to my main character: “I wanted to find out what kind of _________ could dare to propose such a plan.” What I’m looking for is the unmistakable sense that she is referring to a male fox, not just any fox.
[/quote]

Greek is a very plastic language, you can create words almost from nowhere. I found a greek children book (via google ) that has a name for male fox: 'ο αλεπούδος'. Also, a joke that was refering in a male fox and used: 'ο αλέπος'. If you want to know the respective words for female, are: 'η αλεπουδίνα' and 'η αλέπω'. (The last word sounds very rustic and country-style ).
The are is also the term 'η αλεπουδίτσα' that refers to a young female fox.

[quote]
Also, I’ve been studying your Lesson 1 and 2 posts and I don’t quite get the accents on ύ, ή, and ά. Plus I’ve seen other posts about sex and tense and whatnot. Do these affect nouns?
[/quote]
I did not understand what you ask about the accents and about affecting nouns. Sorry, i need more information in this. And about the Romanizing spelling also. You intend to write all the greek words in Latin characters, like 'alepou'? More explanation on this please.
[quote]
Second Question: How do I fill in the blank, above? What if I say: “I wanted to find out what kind of αρσενική αλεπού could dare to propose such a plan,” but with a Romanized spelling (of course). Or would you suggest something else?
[/quote]

"I wanted to find out what kind of alepúdos (or, alepudu ) could dare to propose such a plan"

The two options are risen because in Greek the endings of the words differ with the case. So, 'o alepudos' is in the nominative case. But the phrase above is in genitive case and the word changes in 'του αλεπούδου - tu alepudu'. How do you like it? If it doesn't mind you you can use the nominative form for all greek nouns. You 'll have to decide about this. (I personally recommend it, it doesn't change many anyway, the first option i mean ).

[quote]
“You know, since my ________, Charles, passed away, I’ve had several suitors. But none had your qualities.” She is talking about her late husband, whom she had been very fond of. I want her to say something like “beloved manly fox” or “beloved big fox”. Some sense that she thought he was masculine and strong. This would be a sort of nickname she’s made up for him.
[/quote]
I think that the word 'alepudos' is the suitable to fill in this blank. But if you want to be more emphatic and denote that is big and strong you can use the word 'o alepúdaros mu - ο αλεπούδαρος μου'. This ending, -aros or -aras denotes big sizes for the noun that are attached to.
For example, 'ο παίκτης' is the player in Greek. So, if you want to praise a player of your favorite football team you say 'παικταρά μου'. :) Confusing? Think about all these and let me know if it helped you. Bye.

ScottyDM Monday 28th of November 2005 06:33:39 PM
- I did a lot of research on Greek scientists and inventors while looking for a suitable family name for my heroine. Unfortunately, using Google, the easiest people to find are the ancients. I read many pages on Archytas of Tarentum. Two of the best I found were at: [url=http://www.tmth.edu.gr/en/aet/1/14.html][u]the Technology Museum of Thessaloniki[/u][/url] and a page at [url=http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Archytas.html][u] the University of St Andrews, Scotland[/u][/url].

I’ve had to invent the whole vulpine society:

In 2032 NASA (the US space agency) contracted with Sanminto Biosciences to “uplift” some Vulpes vulpes, so they could eventually use them as part of a planetary exploration team to work along side humans and “uplifted” corvids (the corvids are to be supplied by the RKA (Russian space agency)). The V. vulpes used were from North American stock, but many of the wild foxes the northeast are mixed blood with European foxes.

When the first generation was between 2 and 6 years old NASA took the contract from Sanminto, for mismanagement and mistreatment of the subjects, and awarded it to General Genetics—only 22 individuals “survived” Sanminto. This was in 2047. This first generation had only ID numbers, but under GG’s care they are given personal names. After several years of observation and building predictive models of the V. vulpes-hominis genome, GG used in vitro techniques for conception (from social pairs) and they spliced in genes, mostly from other foxes in the program, to correct obvious problems—then the zygotes were implanted into the female’s womb. This produced the second-generation vulpes-hominis, which happened in four waves, and known as G-2a through G-2d. Each individual from G2 was given a unique family name and a personal name. Thus the nerds at NASA created the pool of family names that were used, and they chose to honor inventors and aviators from around the world.

My main character’s parents are from G-2c and were born in August of 2060. His mother is Aimee Fabre and his father is Philippe (née Montgolfier) Fabre. Fox society is matriarchal, so the male takes the female’s name. Aimee was (and is) fascinated by any and all things French, so she gave her children French names. Paris (my main character) was their first-born and his sister Bridgett came 22 minutes later. This was in August of 2078, the same year that General Genetics released many of the subjects to NASA’s care and they were officially announced to the general public. Some time after Paris and Bridgett grew up and left home, Aimee took her family to France to work with the ESA. Due to anti-slavery laws, the foxes are employees and free to make their own way in the word, if they so choose.

My heroine’s parents are from G-2d. Since she has so little time in the book, I’ve not worked out a family tree for her, other than her name of Aphrodite Archyta(s), that she was born in 2085, and that she partnered with a G-2b male named Charles who was killed in an accident in 2118. They were partnered in 2102, when she was 17 and he was 45 (but it’s ok, they were in Texas at the time). Yes, three names is unusual for my foxes. Her mother named her Aphrodite, but she fancied Sofia. So growing up she calls herself Sofia Archyta(s), but Aphrodite Archyta(s) is her legal name—hence the three names.

Although the foxes were originally from North American wild stock, many of them (over half the families) have embraced the nationality of the family name assigned to them. The little ones are home schooled, so any love of their adopted country is passed on, such as history, language, etc.

Ok, so Archytas is not a proper Greek family name. Remember that rocket scientists and other nerds working at NASA picked out the names. [b]Is Archytas really-nasty-bad as a family name? And if so, is there some way to fix it, yet still connect to our ancient inventor of the rocket-propelled bird? Come to think of it, since fox society is matriarchal, family names [u]should[/u] be feminine (where the language permits). Thus maybe she is Aphrodite Sofia Archyta, and her partner was Charles Archyta.[/b] Sorry, I am a bit confused by the idea that a family name can shift spelling depending the who is using it.

I’ll use a separate post for the Greek phrases feedback.

Scotty

ScottyDM Monday 28th of November 2005 06:40:12 PM
- Panos:

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

[quote]You intend to write all the Greek words in Latin characters, like 'alepou'? More explanation on this please.[/quote]
When most people who live in the US see more than two non-English words together in the same sentence, their eyes glaze over, their brain pops into neutral, and they start to drool. The effect is much worse if a “funny” alphabet is used. For example, when I see “alepou” it makes a certain amount of sense—at least I can attempt to pronounce it. But when I see “αλεπού” it is completely meaningless to me.

This is difficult for me because I want “second semester” results but I’m still in my “first class”. I was using the Greek alphabet because I didn’t want to compound confusion by my error-filled attempt to change Greek letters to Latin. For example: why is “αλεπού” written as “alepou” and not “alepoi” or “alepoe”?

Ultimately, I need my phrases in the Latin alphabet.

Another bit of confusion for me: If “η” (would that be “i” or (phonetically) “ih”?) is a feminizing prefix, then how can “αρσενική αλεπού” be a male fox? Or is that dictionary I used all messed up. Going back to the dictionary and [url=http://www.in.gr/dictionary/lookup.asp?Word=%E1%F1%F3%E5%ED%E9%EA%DE][u]looking up “αρσενική”[/u][/url] I get “dog fox”, “male cat”, “drake”, or “gander”, which certainly is what I was looking for. I suspect I haven’t figured this out yet.

[quote]"I wanted to find out what kind of alepúdos (or, alepudu ) could dare to propose such a plan"

The two options are risen because in Greek the endings of the words differ with the case. So, 'o alepudos' is in the nominative case. But the phrase above is in genitive case and the word changes in 'του αλεπούδου - tu alepudu'. How do you like it? If it doesn't mind you can use the nominative form for all Greek nouns. You'll have to decide about this. (I personally recommend it, it doesn't change many anyway, the first option I mean).[/quote]
This is great. I have a question of pronunciation. You’ve written both “alepúdos” and “alepudos”, is the difference that the first one shows the syllable to stress, as in “ale[b]pu[/b]dos” and the second one doesn’t show, but should be pronounced the same way?

See the next point, but I’m leaning toward: “I wanted to find out what kind of alepúdos could dare to propose such a plan.”

[quote][quote]“You know, since my ________, Charles, passed away, I’ve had several suitors. But none had your qualities.” She is talking about her late husband, whom she had been very fond of. I want her to say something like “beloved manly fox” or “beloved big fox”. Some sense that she thought he was masculine and strong. This would be a sort of nickname she’s made up for him.[/quote]
I think that the word 'alepudos' is the suitable to fill in this blank. But if you want to be more emphatic and denote that is big and strong you can use the word 'o alepúdaros mu - ο αλεπούδαρος μου'. This ending, -aros or -aras denotes big sizes for the noun that are attached to.[/quote]
Awesome! I see here an echo of the first phrase, which will lend a bit of familiarity, since the two phrases appear on the same page. If Sofia refers to Paris as a “alepúdos” and her late husband as “my alepúdaros mu” the astute reader will see that Charles is the same, but with little something extra.

I’ve used the stressor marks over the “u”, but strictly speaking, do I need them?

Ok, here’s a four-paragraph excerpt with both phrases. To put this in perspective, my main character Paris is at the peak of his heat-cycle and Sophia is not. Not yet anyway. She expects hers to hit in a day or two. Heat-cycle is only once per year. They are trying to have a business discussion about her company funding his new business, but she seems to have another plan. She’s hanging back near the open door to minimize the effect of his pheromones and airborne hormones and keep a clear head. Italics denote internal thoughts.
[quote]“I ummm… today.” [i]Good lord, I sound like a fool.[/i] The scent of vixen filled his nose and toyed with his brain. “Ms Archyta…”

“Today. Yes,” she said. “And please call me Sofia. When I first saw your business plan and realized who you were, I was intrigued. I wanted to find out what kind of alepudos could dare to propose such a plan. Without… how to say… support.” Her eyes wandered up and down his physique.

“I worked. Very hard, Sofia.” [i]Control. Stay the course.[/i]

She smiled at him, but hung back near the open door. “When our first meeting had to be rescheduled an idea began to grow. You seem to be independent, tough, with a head for business, and capable of amassing assets under difficult conditions. You know… since my alepudaros mu, Charles, passed away, I’ve had several suitors. But none had your qualities. At least not on paper.”[/quote]
Does that seem reasonable?

Thanks a million!

Scotty

Panos Saturday 03rd of December 2005 07:26:01 AM
- Hi Scott
I was out of town so i am late in anwering to you.
You ask: "why is “αλεπού” written as “alepou” and not “alepoi” or “alepoe”?". You can also write it as alepu,
there are not certain rules about greek - english transliteration. The first one -alepou- simulates better the way the word is written in Greek. But if you want it to sound more familiar in English - for the readers - i recommend the "alepu" pattern - it simulates better the sound of the greek word.
[quote]
Another bit of confusion for me: If “η” (would that be “i” or (phonetically) “ih”?) is a feminizing prefix, then how can “αρσενική αλεπού” be a male fox? Or is that dictionary I used all messed up. Going back to the dictionary and looking up “αρσενική” I get “dog fox”, “male cat”, “drake”, or “gander”, which certainly is what I was looking for. I suspect I haven’t figured this out yet.
[/quote]
The word 'αλεπού' is inherately female as i wrote, so the 'η' is the female article. If you don't need to use article in a sentence you don't have to use the 'η'. (It is pronounced like -ee in the word "bee" ). In English usually the articles are not used so often while in Greek they do. I write an example.

'Sofia is a typical fox'. This in Greek is "Η Σοφία είναι μια τυπική αλεπού - I Sofia ine mia tipiki alepu".
About the word 'αρσενική' it does mean 'male' but it is an adjective and it has the same ending with the noun that follows it. So, in greek language there are 3 genders (male, female, and neutral ) and so 3 different endings for nouns and adjectives. So, in Greek, if you want to say 'this eagle is male' you say 'aftos o aetos ine arsenikos'. Note that the word 'αρσενική' now becomes 'αρσενικός', the ending -os is for male while -i (-η )is for female. I hope this is clear.

[quote]
I have a question of pronunciation. You’ve written both “alepúdos” and “alepudos”, is the difference that the first one shows the syllable to stress, as in “alepudos” and the second one doesn’t show, but should be pronounced the same way?
[/quote]

Yes, this is the case, i used this letter -ú- to show which syllable is stressed, i borrowed the letter from the czech keyboard :)

[quote]
“my alepúdaros mu”
[/quote]

You don't need to add the 'mu' because it does the same job as 'my' in English, it is the possesive pronoun. So, you can just write “my alepúdaros”. And you can use the -ú- letter to show where the word is stressed, i think it is o.k.
So, you can use both words, 'alepudos' and 'alepudaros' for ephasis and being understanable at the same time. I hope it works for you and that i helped a little bit. Bye.

ScottyDM Saturday 03rd of December 2005 09:12:15 AM
- Awesome, Panos!

[quote][i]Originally posted by panos74[/i]
The word 'αλεπού' is inherately female as i wrote, so the 'η' is the female article. If you don't need to use article in a sentence you don't have to use the 'η'. (It is pronounced like -ee in the word "bee" ).
...
About the word 'αρσενική' it does mean 'male' but it is an adjective and it has the same ending with the noun that follows it. So, in greek language there are 3 genders (male, female, and neutral) and so 3 different endings for nouns and adjectives. So, in Greek, if you want to say 'this eagle is male' you say 'aftos o aetos ine arsenikos'. Note that the word 'αρσενική' now becomes 'αρσενικός', the ending -os is for male while -i (-η )is for female. I hope this is clear.[/quote]
OK, this is for my understanding more than a specific line in the story: Because alepoú is a noun with a femine form, I'd say the "male fox" by writing "arsenikí alepoú"? The modifier "male" is written in the feminine form because the noun it modifies is in the feminine form. Might I say, "arsenikós alepúdos"? Perhaps that is silly.

[quote][quote]“my alepúdaros mu”[/quote]
You don't need to add the 'mu' because it does the same job as 'my' in English, it is the possesive pronoun. So, you can just write “my alepúdaros”.[/quote]
So then I have a choice of "my alepúdaros" or "alepúdaros mu"... Choice is good. Also, in this case the modifer for the noun follows: "my studly-fox" versus some random "studly-fox". So it Greek word order it becomes "studly-fox my"?

"Studly" is a slang English word meaning "big, strong and virile". Like a stallion who is put up for "stud" (that is, one that is advertized for breeding services).

Thanks a million, Panos. I save these posts (and others in the Greek forum) to study.

I do want to learn this stuff. I've been playing with the Spanish version of [url=http://www.byki.com/free_lang_software.pl][u]BYKI Lite[/u][/url]. It's only a word list with a recorded voice saying the worlds, but it's fun and helpful. I wish there was something like it for Greek <-> English. That company also has lessons that give grammar rules too.

Has anyone heard of something like this for Greek <-> English?

Thanks again.

Scotty

[/quote]

Panos Saturday 10th of December 2005 04:53:23 AM
- Hi Scotty

You are welcome, i am glad you find it usefull, thank you for your kind words.

[quote]
OK, this is for my understanding more than a specific line in the story: Because alepoú is a noun with a femine form, I'd say the "male fox" by writing "arsenikí alepoú"? The modifier "male" is written in the feminine form because the noun it modifies is in the feminine form. Might I say, "arsenikós alepúdos"? Perhaps that is silly.
[/quote]

You can write 'arsenikos alepoudos', it is grammatically correct but it is a redundancy. The word 'alepudos' doesn't really exists in Greek but it can be made to refer to a male fox.

[quote]
So then I have a choice of "my alepúdaros" or "alepúdaros mu"... Choice is good. Also, in this case the modifer for the noun follows: "my studly-fox" versus some random "studly-fox". So it Greek word order it becomes "studly-fox my"?
[/quote]

Yes, in Greek, the word order for possessive pronouns is the opossite from English, they follow the nouns/adjectives they 'belong' to.

I used the BYKI Lite for Russian. I didn't find any audio samples for learning Greek yet. I'll search better :)
Bye.

ScottyDM Saturday 10th of December 2005 05:06:54 AM
- Thanks Panos.

I will continue my studies. My heroine needs to appear in more chapters and she may need more lines. I don't want to seem like a complete dunce when asking for help.

Nice picture.

Scotty

Anglos Friday 14th of April 2006 04:12:54 AM
- For a free Greek audio course with language samples see http://fsi-language-courses.com/