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Carla
Thursday 07th of September 2006 07:47:55 PM
Domande di Italiano - Italian questions: Questo è uno spazio dedicato alle vostre domande, richieste di spiegazioni o chiarimenti.
Per favore inviate le vostre domande qui e non insieme ai giochi, dove potrebbero passare inosservate.

This topic is meant for you to post Italian questions, doubts, ask for explanations etc.
Please post here your questions rather than in the other topics, since I may not visit the game topics for a while.

Carla :)




Carla
Thursday 07th of September 2006 08:37:03 PM
Originally posted by Laura
La rosa o il tulipano?
Mi piacciono tutti e due.

Carla, se parlo di due sostantivi, uno femminile ed altro maschile, devo usare il maschile o no? (per esempio: la rosa ed il tulipano > è corretto dire 'tutti e due'?)

Sì è corretto.
Quando ci sono uno o più nomi sia maschili che femminili, il plurale è sempre al maschile.
When there are both masculine and feminine nouns, masculine plural form is used.

la rosa e il giglio sono profumati - rose and lily are fragrant
i miei amici e le mie amiche sono simpatici - my male friends and female friends are nice

Se i nomi sono tutti femminili, si usa il femminile plurale:
When there are feminine nouns only, feminine plural form is used.

la rosa e la viola sono profumate - rose and violet are fragrant
le mie compagne di scuola e le mie amiche sono simpatiche - my female classmates and my female friends are nice







Carla
Thursday 07th of September 2006 08:55:36 PM
Originally posted by Danial
Ho una domanda: Quale è la differenza tra 'nella mia mente' ed 'in la mia mente', quando entrambi uguagliano a 'in my mind'? . Grazie. :)

Ciao Danial,
La preposizione articolata "nella" è composta dalla preposizione "in" e dall'articolo "la".
E' sbagliato dire "in la", bisogna usare la preposizione articolata "nella".
Ecco una spiegazione che ho scritto tempo fa sulle preposizioni articolate:

"Nella" is a compound preposition formed by "in" + "la". It is wrong to say "in la", you have to use the compound preposition "nella".
Here is an explanation I wrote some time ago about compound prepositions.


In Italian the prepositions di, a, da, in, su are often combined with definite articles to form compound prepositions (preposizioni articolate).

Definite articles

il, lo - masculine singular
la - feminine singular
i, gli - masculine plural
le - feminine plural

Compound prepositions (preposition + article)

di + il, lo = [color=blue]del, dello[/color]
di + la = [color=blue]della[/color]
di + i, gli = [color=blue]dei, degli[/color]
di + le = [color=blue]delle[/color]
Examples:
il calore [color=blue]del[/color] sole, il cane [color=blue]dello[/color] zio, l'inizio [color=blue]della[/color] primavera, il capo [color=blue]dei[/color] ribelli, il canto [color=blue]degli[/color] uccelli, il profumo [color=blue]delle[/color] rose
the heat of the sun, my uncle’s dog, the beginning of spring, the leader of the rebels (or the rebel leader) , the scent of roses, birdsong (or the song of birds)

a + il, lo = [color=blue]al, allo[/color]
a + la = [color=blue]alla[/color]
a + i, gli = [color=blue]ai, agli[/color]
a + le = [color=blue]alle[/color]
Examples
andare [color=blue]al[/color] parco, guardarsi [color=blue]allo[/color] specchio, vedere un film [color=blue] alla[/color] televisione, dare da mangiare [color=blue]ai[/color] pesci, dare da mangiare [color=blue]agli[/color] uccelli
to go to the park, to look at oneself in the mirror, to watch a movie on tv, to feed the fishes, to feed the birds

da + il, lo = [color=blue]dal, dallo[/color]
da + la = [color=blue]dalla[/color]
da + i, gli = [color=blue]dai, dagli[/color]
da + le = [color=blue]dalle[/color]
Examples:
andare [color=blue]dal[/color] dottore, venire [color=blue]dallo[/color] spazio, guardare [color=blue]dalla[/color] finestra, una bambina [color=blue]dai[/color] capelli lunghi, una donna [color=blue]dagli[/color] occhi azzurri, [color=blue]dalle[/color] due alle sette
to go to the doctor, to come from the space, to look out of the window, a long-haired little girl, a blue-eyed woman, from 2:00 to 7:00

in + il, lo = [color=blue]nel, nello[/color]
in + la = [color=blue]nella[/color]
in + i, gli = [color=blue]nei, negli[/color]
in + le = [color=blue]nelle[/color]
Examples:
[color=blue]nel [/color]bosco, [color=blue]nello[/color] stagno, [color=blue]nella[/color] cucina, [color=blue]nei[/color] boschi, [color=blue]negli[/color] stagni, [color=blue]nelle[/color] cucine
in the wood, in the pond, in the kitchen, in the woods, in the ponds, in the kitchens

su + il, lo = [color=blue]sul, sullo[/color]
su + la = [color=blue]sulla[/color]
su + i, gli = [color=blue]sui, sugli[/color]
su + le = [color=blue]sulle[/color]
Examples:
[color=blue]sul[/color] tavolo, [color=blue]sullo[/color] scaffale, [color=blue]sulla[/color] sedia, [color=blue]sui[/color] tavoli, [color=blue]sugli[/color] scaffali, [color=blue]sulle[/color] sedie
on the table, on the shelf, on the chair, on the tables, on the shelves, on the chairs

The preposition con may or not be combined with definite articles. The compound forms are mostly used in spoken language, but I like better to use con and the article separately.
con + il, lo = [color=blue]col, collo[/color]
con + la = [color=blue]colla[/color]
con + i, gli = [color=blue]coi, cogli[/color]
con + le = [color=blue]colle[/color]

Notice that the compound prepositions dello, della, dallo, dalla, allo, alla, nello, nella, sullo, sulla become dell', dall', all', nell', sull' before nouns - either masculine or feminine - starting with a vowel.



In italiano però non si usa "


Ania
Thursday 07th of September 2006 11:34:37 PM
Non so come si usa la frase "in italiano", "di italiano"? Uso le frasi: nel italiano, del italiano.

Qual è corretto?


Carla
Friday 08th of September 2006 04:31:44 AM
Con le lingue si usano di solito le preposizioni semplici, quindi le frasi corrette e più usate sono: "in italiano" e "di italiano".
in italiano, in inglese, in spagnolo...
di italiano, di inglese, di spagnolo...

"Nell'italiano" e "dell'italiano" sono poco usate ("nel italiano" e "del italiano" non sono corrette).
Con le parole maschili che iniziano per vocale si devono usare le preposizioni nello e dello, che con l'elisione della vocale diventano nell' e dell'.
nell'italiano, nell'oceano, nell'ambiente, nell'ufficio...
dell'italiano, dell'oceano, dell'ambiente, dell'ufficio...

When talking about languages, the simple prepositions "in", "di" are used. The correct - and more commonly used expressions are: "in italiano" and "di italiano".
in italiano, in inglese, in spagnolo...
di italiano, di inglese, di spagnolo...

"Nell'italiano" and "dell'italiano" are little used ("nel italiano" and "del italiano" are not correct)

The compound prepositions nell' and dell' (contractions of nello and dello) must be used before masculine nouns starting in a vowel.

nell'italiano, nell'oceano, nell'ambiente, nell'ufficio...
dell'italiano, dell'oceano, dell'ambiente, dell'ufficio...



Tiger
Saturday 09th of September 2006 06:17:58 AM
Can you please explain to me the 'Subjunctive' thing? I've been told that it's very difficult and it's in many Romance languages. So, I would like to know what it is, and how it affects Italian writing. Thanks!

Also, how do you tell time in Italian?

And how do you count past ten? (srry, stupid question :( )


Danial
Thursday 21st of September 2006 01:59:17 AM
Ciao! :) Grazie for the explaination on compound propositions :) It really helped! :D So... here's my next question.

I was trying to read, La Divina Commedia in Italian and when I tried to look up for a few words, then I tried to figure out which tense it used, I didn't understand. So...
Okay, I don't really understand these few tenses. Though, I roughly understand some of it's French ones.

Passato remoto - Passé simple

Trapassato prossimo - Plus-que-parfait

Futuro anteriore - Futur antérieur

Trapassato remoto - Passé antérieur


Carla
Thursday 21st of September 2006 04:56:27 AM
Well done, Danial!
To read the Divina Commedia in Italian may be a tricky job... hard even for native speakers :). You have to think that poem was composed between 1308 and 1321 and Italian language was different from modern Italian. You know, when reading the Divina Commedia, Italian speakers themselves need explanations to understand the language.

The most used tenses in La Divina Commedia (and in novels in general) are past tenses: passato remoto, imperfetto and passato prossimo.
You are right, Italian verb tenses are very close to the French ones... they are pretty much the same.

What part of the Divina Commedia did you try to read? You may post here what you don’t understand... your questions are welcome :)

Here are a few lines from the beginning. Let’s analyze the verb tenses…


Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai (ritrovarsi - passato remoto) per una selva oscura
ché la diritta via era (essere – imperfetto indicativo) smarrita.

Ahi quanto a dir qual era(essere – imperfetto indicativo) è (essere – presente indicativo) cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova (rinnovare - presente indicativo) la paura!

English version by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Midway upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straight-forward pathway had been lost.

Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.


Click [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy#Inferno]HERE to learn more about La Divina Commedia by Dante Alighieri



Tiger
Thursday 21st of September 2006 05:37:01 AM
Hey Danial. Could you help me with the question I posted right before you? I figure that with your French knowledge, you might understand what I'm talking about. :)


Carla
Thursday 21st of September 2006 05:59:28 AM
I'm sorry, Tiger...
I'm a bit late in answering your question :D
I wrote this explanation very fast, I hope it is clear enough... if not, just ask :)

The use of Subjunctive in Italian.

Subjunctive is a verbal mood mainly used in subordinate clauses
when the main clause contains a verb expressing a kind of emotion (hope, wish, desire, command…) or uncertainty (opinion, doubt, possibility, judgement…)
Subordinate clauses are generally introduced by the conjunction che.
For example, in the following sentence:
Desidero che tu sia felice
(Io) desidero = main clause
che tu sia felice = subordinate clause

Here is a list of the most common Italian verbs that call for subjunctive:
sperare - to hope,
desiderare – to desire, to wish
augurare – to wish
volere – to want
essere felice, contento – to be happy
pensare – to think
credere – to believe, to think
dubitare – to doubt

Just a note for French speakers and people who can speak French:

[color=blue]One difference between the French subjunctive and the Italian is that Italian uses the subjunctive after expressions like "Penso che", "Credo che", "Ritengo che" ("I think that"), where French would use the indicative.
Also, the Italian imperfetto congiuntivo and trapassato congiuntivo are far more used than the corresponding French tenses (imparfait subjonctif and plus-que-parfait subjonctif). [/color]

Subjunctive is also used in subordinate clauses introduced by some other conjunctions (sebbene, affinché, benché).

Subjunctive mood has 4 tenses: two simple tenses (presente and imperfetto) and two compound tenses (passato and trapassato)

The Garzanti website is always there to help... click [url=http://www.garzantilinguistica.it/verbi_ita.html]HERE to go to the conjugations page.

The most used subjunctive tenses are presente and imperfetto.
Usually, the tense of the CONGIUNTIVO you need depends on the tense of the verb in the main clause.
Here’s how to chose the right tense:

When the verb in the main clause is in present tense, then use present or past subjunctive:
Penso che tu abbia ragione – I think you are right
Voglio che tu venga qui - I want you to come here
Sono felice che tu sia venuto - I’m happy that you have come

When the verb in the main clause is any indicative past tense (passato prossimo, imperfetto, passato remoto) or in conditional present tense, then use imperfetto subjunctive.
Pensavo che tu avessi ragione – I thought you were right
Volevo che tu venissi qui - I wanted you to come here
Vorrei che tu fossi qui – I wish you were here

Carla



Tiger
Thursday 21st of September 2006 06:12:21 AM
...hmm...thank you Carla, however, as I'm sure that it is written in a very understandable way, I, unfortanetly don't understand what it means.

But that just me. I'll see if maybe Danial understands it, and can explain it. Tenses are just one thing that I'm just not good at. :(


Carla
Thursday 21st of September 2006 06:40:14 AM
No problem, Tiger...
Don't worry. Because of our language being so complicated, we study much grammar in school. I may take some grammar concepts for granted...

I'll try to make it more simple:

Let's take an English sentence and then translate it into Italian:

“I know (that) you are American”
The right Italian sentence is “so che sei americano”. This is a statement of fact, I know that for sure. Using indicative tense (sei = you are) is fine here.

Let’s take another sentence:
"I think (that) you are right"

You would probably translate it as "penso che tu hai ragione”…

Well, that’s
    incorrect
. You have to say “penso che tu abbia ragione” (abbia = present subjunctive of avere).
Why is that?

Because in Italian, verbs expressing uncertainty (opinion, doubt, possibility etc) or emotion call for SUBJUNCTIVE. You can’t use an indicative tense here. If you do it, you will be understood but your sentence is not correct.



Tiger
Thursday 21st of September 2006 05:47:09 PM
Ok, so the subjunctive tense if used to convey emotion in grammar? Like uncertainty. But, mainly uncertainty? :p I think I understand it. I'll be refering back to this page though for some help. :)

Grazie!


Carla
Thursday 21st of September 2006 08:29:03 PM
Yes, that's it :)

Subjunctive is used with verbs expressing some kind of subjectiveness: opinion, supposition, wish, will, command, uncertainty, doubt, fear, hope, possibility, need, mood.

I started a new topic about Italian grammar exercises. The exercise #1 is about subjunctive :)
http://www.phrasebase.com/discuss/read.php?TID=16631

Carla


Danial
Thursday 21st of September 2006 08:48:52 PM
Grazie mille, Carla! :)

Here is the subjunctive and indicative in Spanish:

http://www.phrasebase.com/discuss/read.php?TID=16587

It's a good read that compliments along with your explaination! :)

Ok, back to La Divina Commedia for me.

Well, I've just started the first paragraph.
You can download yourself one free copy of La Divina Commedia here too :)
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1000

Now I'll need to find the English version so that I can see along side :) Hmm... if I'm done with the book I wonder if I'll start speaking Italian like the 1300s :p lol

Hmm... Some question, sure I will post all the questions after I read each one chapter. Maybe we could all read it too? :) Italian Literature class. :D


Danial
Monday 23rd of October 2006 08:32:10 PM
Ah... ho una domanda :D

When do you use the 'e' and 'ed' for 'and'? :)


Carla
Monday 23rd of October 2006 09:04:59 PM
D eufonica: The D you sometimes add to the conjunctions E and O and to the preposition A is called euphonic D. As a general rule, the euphonic D may be added to the words E, A and O when the following word starts in a vowel; adding the D is recommended when the following word starts with the same vowel (e.g. ed ecco, ad arte etc.).


Danial
Monday 23rd of October 2006 11:32:52 PM
Ah, grazie! :)


leobloom
Wednesday 25th of October 2006 10:29:22 PM
Danial sei il mio eroe lol :D you brave man :D It's extremely hard to read the Commedia for a foreign student :D
Anyway in case you are interested or just curious [url=http://www.danteonline.it/italiano/codici_indice.htm]here you can take a look at some manuscripts of the Commedia, obviously we don't own one signed by Dante himslef coz it's not been found so they are all copies written throughout different centuries, mainly late Middle Ages though.


Ania
Wednesday 25th of October 2006 10:38:12 PM
Uhh!!! what a tough task you want to be done, Danial!! I read it in Polish and I loved it but I shurely wouldn't risk reading it now according to my poor Italian fluency level. :p
It'd be like with "Romeo and Juliet" in English for me... :D


Carla
Thursday 26th of October 2006 04:06:55 AM
@Danial: stai ancora leggendo la Divina Commedia?


Danial
Thursday 26th of October 2006 04:36:56 AM
lol, :D

Well, I haven't read past the Chapter 1 yet due to my very very very (yes, a long list of 'very') weak Italian and being busy :p I guess I want to really really build up my Italian first plus I don't think it would be that bad as I have some friends who are reading Shakespeare (Macbeth) with a guide :p

So my two current problems are:
1) Weak italian
2) Afraid to confuse Modern Italian and Middle Age Italian (so I would need a guide with that :p)

Oh, and Ania :p you can so read Romeo and Juliet :D just need a little guide that's all

I hope I can read it soon in my November-December holidays (which is coming soon :D)


Carla
Thursday 26th of October 2006 05:06:04 AM
Danial, you look like an hyperactive boy :D
I wonder where you can find time to study, learn lots of languages, post to PB, make lovely presentations... what else?

Anyway, if you were to start the Divina Commedia again, you may ask myself or Vito for some help :)


leobloom
Saturday 28th of October 2006 07:09:07 AM
I'll be glad to help you Danial =o) you'd need the help of a native to read that lol =o)

I have a great and funny version of the Inferno as comics, if I could scan it I'd upload it!It's so hilarious!



Danial
Saturday 28th of October 2006 07:12:52 AM
Grazie mille Carla e Vito! :D

Hmm... maybe it's just passion? lol Ah... halloween approaching!! Almost presentation time in a few days.

Cool, a funny version? :p I would love to see that.

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