Italian Passato Prossimo Question About Forming The Past In Italian

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smo718 Sunday 18th of September 2005 09:42:57 AM
passato prossimo - hello all - i know that the passato prossimo is formed in italian with essere or avere as a helping verb and the past participle of the verb. BUT, i'm a bit confused. I try to read alot of italian on-line and have seen many times in newspaper articles or titles what appears to be just the past participle of a verb with essere or avere. is this only a device used in newspapers or something that can also be used in formal/informal writing and speech? one example i can give is an article that was written about an evacuation safety plan for vesuvius. the title of the article was "Vesuvio: presentato piano sicurezza" (which translates, i'm assuming into "Vesuvio: safety plan presented".

There was also an article about a musician who died which said, "morto a 72 anni stroncato da un male incurabile." I couldn't find a perfect translation for strancato.....is it strancare? if so, what does it mean in this context.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer!

Carla Monday 19th of September 2005 12:18:40 AM
- Hi :) :)

You are right, the use of past participle in newspaper headlines is a sort of journalist device to make titles shorter and to draw readers attention. It is not used in other kind of written texts neither in spoken language.
If you go on reading those articles you will see that passato prossimo is used when reporting events.

“Stroncato da un male incurabile” is an idiom.
“Stroncare” means literally “to break off a branch (of a tree)” and it is used both in literal and in figurative sense.
In figurative sense, “stroncare” is used to refer to a sudden and untimely death (cut off, cut short).
Look at the following examples:
Literal sense: “Stanotte il vento ha stroncato un ramo di quell’albero” – “Last night the wind broke off a branch of that tree”
Figurative sense: “E’ stato stroncato da un infarto” – “He was struck down by a heart attack”

Un “male incurabile” (=incurable disease) is an euphemism used for “cancer”.

Hope that I made myself clear

;)
Carla

smo718 Monday 19th of September 2005 12:38:52 AM
thanks Carla! - Carla,

Thank you, and yes you make yourself clear. So, I will find this cut off version of the passato prossimo in both newspaper titles and articles but not in other written or spoken forms? So far, I have only seen it in the newspaper.

Grazie mille!

Stephen

leobloom Saturday 24th of September 2005 06:19:32 PM
- just ti be a bit more precise...i know it's not so important but i can't stop this....
"stroncato" is the past participle of "stroncare2, the "passato prossimo" tense is somehow similar to the English Present Perfect though some verbs have "essere2 as auxiliary verbs instead of "avere". Journalists use the past participle, participio presente and gerundio a lot (these last two ar translated as ing-form in Enhglish) to make titles shorter.

when you read a title like !"stroncato da un male incurabile" you are reading a past participle, not a passato prossimo, though the journalist is assuming you will had the auxiliary verb "in your mind" to get, in the end, a passato prossimo.
yep, you will find this kind of sentences on newspapers only, even though some novel writers use it sometimes too but not very often.
Saluti

ishishish Saturday 10th of June 2006 02:13:24 AM
-
Ciao, Carla!

Aiutami! Voglio sapere quando si usa il passato prossimo e l\'imperfetto. Non c\'e l\'imperfetto nell\'inglese... mi sembra.

Grazie,
Ish

Carla Monday 12th of June 2006 12:45:07 AM
- Ciao Ish,
ecco una spiegazione che ho scritto tempo fa sull\'uso del passato prossimo e dell\'imperfetto. Spero che ti sia utile

[quote]The most common past tenses in Italian are: [b]Passato prossimo, passato remoto and imperfetto.[/b]
Passato remoto is used mostly in story telling and in some italian areas (Sicily, Tuscany), so if you are a beginner and you are not planning to read a novel in Italian, you can skip it for now.

Usually, when talking about a past event, both imperfetto and passato prossimo are used, according to the situation.

Here are the differences between these two tenses:

[b]PASSATO PROSSIMO[/b]
Passato prossimo is used to report a [u]specific event[/u] happened at a [u]specific time[/u].

Some examples:
Sabato scorso [color=blue]sono andato [/color] al ristorante e [color=blue]ho mangiato [/color] una pizza - Last Saturday I went to the restaurant and I had a pizza
Ieri [color=blue]ha piovuto [/color] per tutto il giorno - Yesterday it rained all day
Stamattina [color=blue]sono arrivato [/color] tardi al lavoro – Today I arrived late at work
Ieri [color=blue]sono andata [/color] al cinema – Yesterday I went to the movies
L’anno scorso [color=blue]ho fatto[/color] un viaggio in Italia – Last year I travelled to Italy

[b]IMPERFETTO [/b]
Imperfetto is used in the following cases:

1. For [u]usual actions[/u] (like the English “used to be”, “used to do”)
Quando [color=green]ero[/color] piccola [color=green]leggevo[/color] le favole – When I was a child I used to read fairy tales
Quando [color=green]ero[/color] studente [color=green]arrivavo[/color] sempre tardi a scuola’ – ‘When I was a student, I used to be late at school’

2. for [u]actions in progress[/u], when something else happened or was happening

Mentre [color=green]leggevo[/color] (action in progress – imperfetto) lui [color=green]guardava[/color] (action in progress – imperfetto) la televisione - While I was reading he was watching TV,
Mentre [color=green]andavo[/color] (action in progress – imperfetto) a casa ho incontrato (specific event – passato prossimo) un mio amico – While I was going home I met a friend of mine
[color=green]Stavo[/color] dormendo (action in progress – imperfetto) quando un rumore mi ha svegliato (specific event – passato prossimo) – I was sleeping when a noise awoke me

3. for [u]descriptions[/u], when reporting [u]past situations[/u]
Ieri c’[color=green]era[/color] il sole e [color=green]faceva[/color] caldo – Yesterday the weather was sunny and warm
La casa di mio padre [color=green]era[/color] grande e accogliente – My father’s house was large and cosy

4. Notice the idiom: “C’era una volta” = “Once upon a time”.

Here is a little [b]exercise[/b] to practice. passato prossimo and imperfetto.
In the following text, fill in the blanks with the appropriate tense (passato prossimo or imperfetto). Put the verbs in 1st person singular (io).

Ieri ________________(svegliarsi) alle 8 e mezzo. _______(Piovere). Siccome ___ (essere) tardi, _________(chiedere) a mio padre di accompagnarmi a scuola, ma la sua macchina ___ (essere) senza benzina, così __________ (dovere) prendere l’autobus.
Mentre _________ (aspettare) l’autobus alla fermata, ________ (vedere) passare un mio amico in moto, e gli __________ (chiedere) un passaggio, così _____________ (arrivare) in orario.

Here’s the English translation:
Yesterday I woke up at 8:30 am. It was raining. Since it was late, I asked my father to take me to school by car, but his car was out of gas, so I had to take the bus.
While I was at the bus stop waiting for the bus, I saw a friend of mine going by (?) on his motorbike, and I asked him for a lift, so I arrived at school on time.

Carla
[/quote]

Phrasebase Archive
	smo718	Sunday 18th of September 2005 09:42:57 AM
	passato prossimo - hello all - i know that the passato prossimo is formed in italian with essere or avere as a helping verb and the past participle of the verb. BUT, i'm a bit confused. I try to read alot of italian on-line and have seen many times in newspaper articles or titles what appears to be just the past participle of a verb with essere or avere. is this only a device used in newspapers or something that can also be used in formal/informal writing and speech? one example i can give is an article that was written about an evacuation safety plan for vesuvius. the title of the article was "Vesuvio: presentato piano sicurezza" (which translates, i'm assuming into "Vesuvio: safety plan presented". There was also an article about a musician who died which said, "morto a 72 anni stroncato da un male incurabile." I couldn't find a perfect translation for strancato.....is it strancare? if so, what does it mean in this context. Thanks for any help anyone can offer!
	Carla	Monday 19th of September 2005 12:18:40 AM
	- Hi :) :) You are right, the use of past participle in newspaper headlines is a sort of journalist device to make titles shorter and to draw readers attention. It is not used in other kind of written texts neither in spoken language. If you go on reading those articles you will see that passato prossimo is used when reporting events. “Stroncato da un male incurabile” is an idiom. “Stroncare” means literally “to break off a branch (of a tree)” and it is used both in literal and in figurative sense. In figurative sense, “stroncare” is used to refer to a sudden and untimely death (cut off, cut short). Look at the following examples: Literal sense: “Stanotte il vento ha stroncato un ramo di quell’albero” – “Last night the wind broke off a branch of that tree” Figurative sense: “E’ stato stroncato da un infarto” – “He was struck down by a heart attack” Un “male incurabile” (=incurable disease) is an euphemism used for “cancer”. Hope that I made myself clear ;) Carla
	smo718	Monday 19th of September 2005 12:38:52 AM
	thanks Carla! - Carla, Thank you, and yes you make yourself clear. So, I will find this cut off version of the passato prossimo in both newspaper titles and articles but not in other written or spoken forms? So far, I have only seen it in the newspaper. Grazie mille! Stephen
	leobloom	Saturday 24th of September 2005 06:19:32 PM
	- just ti be a bit more precise...i know it's not so important but i can't stop this.... "stroncato" is the past participle of "stroncare2, the "passato prossimo" tense is somehow similar to the English Present Perfect though some verbs have "essere2 as auxiliary verbs instead of "avere". Journalists use the past participle, participio presente and gerundio a lot (these last two ar translated as ing-form in Enhglish) to make titles shorter. when you read a title like !"stroncato da un male incurabile" you are reading a past participle, not a passato prossimo, though the journalist is assuming you will had the auxiliary verb "in your mind" to get, in the end, a passato prossimo. yep, you will find this kind of sentences on newspapers only, even though some novel writers use it sometimes too but not very often. Saluti
	ishishish	Saturday 10th of June 2006 02:13:24 AM
	- Ciao, Carla! Aiutami! Voglio sapere quando si usa il passato prossimo e l\'imperfetto. Non c\'e l\'imperfetto nell\'inglese... mi sembra. Grazie, Ish
	Carla	Monday 12th of June 2006 12:45:07 AM
	- Ciao Ish, ecco una spiegazione che ho scritto tempo fa sull\'uso del passato prossimo e dell\'imperfetto. Spero che ti sia utile [quote]The most common past tenses in Italian are: [b]Passato prossimo, passato remoto and imperfetto.[/b] Passato remoto is used mostly in story telling and in some italian areas (Sicily, Tuscany), so if you are a beginner and you are not planning to read a novel in Italian, you can skip it for now. Usually, when talking about a past event, both imperfetto and passato prossimo are used, according to the situation. Here are the differences between these two tenses: [b]PASSATO PROSSIMO[/b] Passato prossimo is used to report a [u]specific event[/u] happened at a [u]specific time[/u]. Some examples: Sabato scorso [color=blue]sono andato [/color] al ristorante e [color=blue]ho mangiato [/color] una pizza - Last Saturday I went to the restaurant and I had a pizza Ieri [color=blue]ha piovuto [/color] per tutto il giorno - Yesterday it rained all day Stamattina [color=blue]sono arrivato [/color] tardi al lavoro – Today I arrived late at work Ieri [color=blue]sono andata [/color] al cinema – Yesterday I went to the movies L’anno scorso [color=blue]ho fatto[/color] un viaggio in Italia – Last year I travelled to Italy [b]IMPERFETTO [/b] Imperfetto is used in the following cases: 1. For [u]usual actions[/u] (like the English “used to be”, “used to do”) Quando [color=green]ero[/color] piccola [color=green]leggevo[/color] le favole – When I was a child I used to read fairy tales Quando [color=green]ero[/color] studente [color=green]arrivavo[/color] sempre tardi a scuola’ – ‘When I was a student, I used to be late at school’ 2. for [u]actions in progress[/u], when something else happened or was happening Mentre [color=green]leggevo[/color] (action in progress – imperfetto) lui [color=green]guardava[/color] (action in progress – imperfetto) la televisione - While I was reading he was watching TV, Mentre [color=green]andavo[/color] (action in progress – imperfetto) a casa ho incontrato (specific event – passato prossimo) un mio amico – While I was going home I met a friend of mine [color=green]Stavo[/color] dormendo (action in progress – imperfetto) quando un rumore mi ha svegliato (specific event – passato prossimo) – I was sleeping when a noise awoke me 3. for [u]descriptions[/u], when reporting [u]past situations[/u] Ieri c’[color=green]era[/color] il sole e [color=green]faceva[/color] caldo – Yesterday the weather was sunny and warm La casa di mio padre [color=green]era[/color] grande e accogliente – My father’s house was large and cosy 4. Notice the idiom: “C’era una volta” = “Once upon a time”. Here is a little [b]exercise[/b] to practice. passato prossimo and imperfetto. In the following text, fill in the blanks with the appropriate tense (passato prossimo or imperfetto). Put the verbs in 1st person singular (io). Ieri ________________(svegliarsi) alle 8 e mezzo. _______(Piovere). Siccome ___ (essere) tardi, _________(chiedere) a mio padre di accompagnarmi a scuola, ma la sua macchina ___ (essere) senza benzina, così __________ (dovere) prendere l’autobus. Mentre _________ (aspettare) l’autobus alla fermata, ________ (vedere) passare un mio amico in moto, e gli __________ (chiedere) un passaggio, così _____________ (arrivare) in orario. Here’s the English translation: Yesterday I woke up at 8:30 am. It was raining. Since it was late, I asked my father to take me to school by car, but his car was out of gas, so I had to take the bus. While I was at the bus stop waiting for the bus, I saw a friend of mine going by (?) on his motorbike, and I asked him for a lift, so I arrived at school on time. Carla [/quote]