Japanese ふん Or ぷん When Telling Time? I Need Clarification.

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kyokiru Wednesday 03rd of August 2005 11:24:46 PM
ふん or ぷん when telling time? - When I did the section on time, my book used both ふん and ぷん to indicate minutes, but it never actually explained when to use each. So when I was talking to my Japanese friend and used ふん, she told me I was supposed to use ぷん. Is there a specific rule about when to use each, or is it just a memorization thing like にひゃく、さんびゃく、ろっぴゃく ( or is there a method to that madness as well? )? Any input would be appreciated. ^_^

Cassia Kono Thursday 04th of August 2005 12:19:22 AM
- I learned the time thing a couple months ago but unfortunatly I threw out the sheet explaining it all. I think it was a memorization thing, there were some numbers that were ふん　and some that were ぷん。　But い cant help out on which ones cause I forgot.

Cassia Kono Thursday 04th of August 2005 12:32:51 AM
- Oh i found something on the internet.

Minutes can be done in a similar fashion, with a "-pun" (or "-fun") suffix.
Irregulars are listed:1 = ippun 2 = nifun 4 = yonpun 5 = gofun 6 =roppun 7 = nanafun 8 = happun/hachifun 9 = kyuufun 10 = juppun

It doesn't have three though

chriss Thursday 04th of August 2005 12:46:06 AM
- Hey Kyokiru,

ふん > ぶん is a regular sound change in japanese that affects the ハ行 (Ha-line of kana, i.e. ha,hi,fu,he,ho).
In certain conditions, the 'h' sound (or 'f' sound) becomes 'voiced' to a 'b'. If you already know how to do the 'ひゃくs', you should have no trouble with 'ふん'.

ひゃくふん

ひゃく (hyaku)　　　　　　いっぷん (ip'pun)
にひゃく (ni'hyaku)　　　　にふん (ni'fun)
さんびゃく　(sam'byaku)　　　さんぶん　 (sam'bun)
よんひゃく (yon'hyaku)　　　よんふん (yon'fun)
ごひゃく (go'hyaku)　　　　ごふん (go'fun)
ろっぴゃく (rop'pyaku)　　　ろっぷん (rop'pun)
ななひゃく (nana'hyaku)　　ななふん (nana'fun)
はっぴゃく (hap'pyaku)　　　はっぷん (hap'pun)
きゅうひゃく(kyuu'hyaku)　　きゅうふん (kyuu'fun)
せん　　　　(sen)　　　　　　　じゅっぷん (jup'pun)

As you can see, the rules for changing ふん　to ぶん　are the same as with ひゃく to びゃく. The numbers that you should keep in mind are 1,3,6,8,and 10.

kyokiru Thursday 04th of August 2005 03:15:43 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by chriss[/i]

If you already know how to do the 'ひゃくs', you should have no trouble with 'ふん'.

As you can see, the rules for changing ふん　to ぶん　are the same as with ひゃく to びゃく. [/quote]

I didn't learn any rules. I just memorized them that way. Is that bad???? O.o Thank you all for all your help. I really do appreciate it.

chriss Thursday 04th of August 2005 07:46:52 AM
- Learning them off by heart isn't so bad. There are sound rules, but they are a bit complicated and it's best to get a feel for japanese before getting bogged down by loads of complicated pronunciation rules. If you learn these off by heart, before long you'll find yourself doing it naturally, without thinking, and that's the most natural way to learn a new language.

This pattern can apply to other words beginning with ha,hi,fu,he,ho (the ハ行) aswell. for example, -hon [-本] (which is a counter for long thin objects):

1- ippon *(ichi+hon > iP'Pon)
2- nihon (ni+hon > nihon)
3- sambon *san+hon > saM'Bon)
4- yonhon (yon+hon > yonhon)
5- gohon (go+hon > gohon)
6- roppon *(roku+hon > roP'Pon)
7- nanahon (nana+hon > nanahon)
8- happon *(hachi+hon > haP'Pon)
9- kyuuhon (kyuu+hon > kyuuhon)
10- juppon *(juu+hon > juP'Pon)

Hope this helps, you'll soon get used to the pattern and find you start applying the rules naturally, but if you're having difficulty i'd be happy to help any way i can, although i'm sure Tomoka-sensei would be more helpful...
:-)

Phrasebase Archive
	kyokiru	Wednesday 03rd of August 2005 11:24:46 PM
	ふん or ぷん when telling time? - When I did the section on time, my book used both ふん and ぷん to indicate minutes, but it never actually explained when to use each. So when I was talking to my Japanese friend and used ふん, she told me I was supposed to use ぷん. Is there a specific rule about when to use each, or is it just a memorization thing like にひゃく、さんびゃく、ろっぴゃく ( or is there a method to that madness as well? )? Any input would be appreciated. ^_^
	Cassia Kono	Thursday 04th of August 2005 12:19:22 AM
	- I learned the time thing a couple months ago but unfortunatly I threw out the sheet explaining it all. I think it was a memorization thing, there were some numbers that were ふん　and some that were ぷん。　But い cant help out on which ones cause I forgot.
	Cassia Kono	Thursday 04th of August 2005 12:32:51 AM
	- Oh i found something on the internet. Minutes can be done in a similar fashion, with a "-pun" (or "-fun") suffix. Irregulars are listed:1 = ippun 2 = nifun 4 = yonpun 5 = gofun 6 =roppun 7 = nanafun 8 = happun/hachifun 9 = kyuufun 10 = juppun It doesn't have three though
	chriss	Thursday 04th of August 2005 12:46:06 AM
	- Hey Kyokiru, ふん > ぶん is a regular sound change in japanese that affects the ハ行 (Ha-line of kana, i.e. ha,hi,fu,he,ho). In certain conditions, the 'h' sound (or 'f' sound) becomes 'voiced' to a 'b'. If you already know how to do the 'ひゃくs', you should have no trouble with 'ふん'. ひゃくふんひゃく (hyaku)　　　　　　いっぷん (ip'pun) にひゃく (ni'hyaku)　　　　にふん (ni'fun) さんびゃく　(sam'byaku)　　　さんぶん　 (sam'bun) よんひゃく (yon'hyaku)　　　よんふん (yon'fun) ごひゃく (go'hyaku)　　　　ごふん (go'fun) ろっぴゃく (rop'pyaku)　　　ろっぷん (rop'pun) ななひゃく (nana'hyaku)　　ななふん (nana'fun) はっぴゃく (hap'pyaku)　　　はっぷん (hap'pun) きゅうひゃく(kyuu'hyaku)　　きゅうふん (kyuu'fun) せん　　　　(sen)　　　　　　　じゅっぷん (jup'pun) As you can see, the rules for changing ふん　to ぶん　are the same as with ひゃく to びゃく. The numbers that you should keep in mind are 1,3,6,8,and 10.
	kyokiru	Thursday 04th of August 2005 03:15:43 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by chriss[/i] If you already know how to do the 'ひゃくs', you should have no trouble with 'ふん'. As you can see, the rules for changing ふん　to ぶん　are the same as with ひゃく to びゃく. [/quote] I didn't learn any rules. I just memorized them that way. Is that bad???? O.o Thank you all for all your help. I really do appreciate it.
	chriss	Thursday 04th of August 2005 07:46:52 AM
	- Learning them off by heart isn't so bad. There are sound rules, but they are a bit complicated and it's best to get a feel for japanese before getting bogged down by loads of complicated pronunciation rules. If you learn these off by heart, before long you'll find yourself doing it naturally, without thinking, and that's the most natural way to learn a new language. This pattern can apply to other words beginning with ha,hi,fu,he,ho (the ハ行) aswell. for example, -hon [-本] (which is a counter for long thin objects): 1- ippon (ichi+hon > iP'Pon) 2- nihon (ni+hon > nihon) 3- sambon san+hon > saM'Bon) 4- yonhon (yon+hon > yonhon) 5- gohon (go+hon > gohon) 6- roppon (roku+hon > roP'Pon) 7- nanahon (nana+hon > nanahon) 8- happon (hachi+hon > haP'Pon) 9- kyuuhon (kyuu+hon > kyuuhon) 10- juppon *(juu+hon > juP'Pon) Hope this helps, you'll soon get used to the pattern and find you start applying the rules naturally, but if you're having difficulty i'd be happy to help any way i can, although i'm sure Tomoka-sensei would be more helpful... :-)