Portuguese Masculine And Feminine

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shekizah Tuesday 26th of September 2006 04:47:24 AM
masculine and feminine - im a bit confused with the use of masculine and feminine.
is the gender of a word dependant on who says it or who it is said to. e.g obrigado/obrigada. i am a female, would i say obrigada all them time or would i say obrigado to a male and obrigada to a female.

i dont know if i am making any sense, it was a bit difficult for me to explain but i hope someone can help me!!!

jrcls Tuesday 26th of September 2006 07:32:44 PM
- Hi,

sure those genre details can be confusing to a english speaker (because there´s no gender in his/her language) but it´s nothing difficult enough to worry about :-)

Your question:
Is the gender of a word dependant on who says it or who it is said to?

Answer is: yes, it depends on who says; and no, it doesn´t depend on who it is said to.

Rule of thumb: in portuguese, as in french, italian, spanish and other romance languages, many words have genres. The most important ones: articles, some pronouns, nouns and adjectives. For example:

> O meu filho é um menino muito magro. [My son is a very thin boy.]
All words have genre, except the verb (é/is) and the adverb (muito/very).
If I had a very thin daughter, I´d say:
> A minha filha é uma menina muito magra.

Ok so far?

About your example: obrigado/obrigada. This is a quite unusual \"thank you\" form, because most \"thank you\" forms refers to the other person (who´s being \"thanked\"), not to the person who´s talking (who´s thanking). Since it uses an adjective, it depends on who says (because it refers to who is saying that).

To my surprise, there´s a perfect translation in english, you can see at http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/18/messages/582.html

--
Quoting:

Posted by R. Berg on January 28, 2003 at 19:16:10:

In Reply to: Much obliged posted by Jodi on January 27, 2003

: Can anyone tell me where the saying \"Much obliged\" or \"Most obliged\" came from?

The earliest quotation for this phrase in the Oxford English Dictionary is dated approx. 1548:
\"Chron. Henry VII\" Yf yt chaunce me by your ayde . . . to recover . . . I . . . shalbe so muche obliged and bounde unto you.

The OED defines this sense of \"oblige\" as \"To be bound to a person by ties of gratitude; to owe or feel gratitude; to be indebted to a person (or thing) for something. Now said only in reference to small services, esp. in making an acknowledgement or request; also, formally, where there is no real indebtedness, as in ordering goods from a tradesman, etc.\"
--

So, when a guy says
> Muito obrigado
he´s meant to say
> I´m grateful for what you did to me and I´m bound to you because of that
or an alternative short form
> I remain grateful
so we can translate it back
> Eu fico grato

(Indeed, instead of \"obrigado\", a guy can say \"grato\", it´s a little bit more formal, at least in brazilian portuguese, dunno in european portuguese. And a girl can say \"grata\" as well.)

So, when a girl says
> Muito obrigada
we can repeat the process above and get
> Eu fico grata

The difference grato/grata reflects the different genres of the thanking person.

Your profile tell us you know french, so we can use an example in this language. When a girl is introduced to someone and she says:
> Enchantée
it can translates to the english
> Charming

I don´t know whether it´s usual for a guy to say \"Enchanté\" (as opposed to \"enchantée\") in such situation (it doesn´t sound that mannish ;-> but it´s an example of a french expression which depends on who´s saying that.

Phrasebase Archive
	shekizah	Tuesday 26th of September 2006 04:47:24 AM
	masculine and feminine - im a bit confused with the use of masculine and feminine. is the gender of a word dependant on who says it or who it is said to. e.g obrigado/obrigada. i am a female, would i say obrigada all them time or would i say obrigado to a male and obrigada to a female. i dont know if i am making any sense, it was a bit difficult for me to explain but i hope someone can help me!!!
	jrcls	Tuesday 26th of September 2006 07:32:44 PM
	- Hi, sure those genre details can be confusing to a english speaker (because there´s no gender in his/her language) but it´s nothing difficult enough to worry about :-) Your question: Is the gender of a word dependant on who says it or who it is said to? Answer is: yes, it depends on who says; and no, it doesn´t depend on who it is said to. Rule of thumb: in portuguese, as in french, italian, spanish and other romance languages, many words have genres. The most important ones: articles, some pronouns, nouns and adjectives. For example: > O meu filho é um menino muito magro. [My son is a very thin boy.] All words have genre, except the verb (é/is) and the adverb (muito/very). If I had a very thin daughter, I´d say: > A minha filha é uma menina muito magra. Ok so far? About your example: obrigado/obrigada. This is a quite unusual \"thank you\" form, because most \"thank you\" forms refers to the other person (who´s being \"thanked\"), not to the person who´s talking (who´s thanking). Since it uses an adjective, it depends on who says (because it refers to who is saying that). To my surprise, there´s a perfect translation in english, you can see at http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/18/messages/582.html -- Quoting: Posted by R. Berg on January 28, 2003 at 19:16:10: In Reply to: Much obliged posted by Jodi on January 27, 2003 : Can anyone tell me where the saying \"Much obliged\" or \"Most obliged\" came from? The earliest quotation for this phrase in the Oxford English Dictionary is dated approx. 1548: \"Chron. Henry VII\" Yf yt chaunce me by your ayde . . . to recover . . . I . . . shalbe so muche obliged and bounde unto you. The OED defines this sense of \"oblige\" as \"To be bound to a person by ties of gratitude; to owe or feel gratitude; to be indebted to a person (or thing) for something. Now said only in reference to small services, esp. in making an acknowledgement or request; also, formally, where there is no real indebtedness, as in ordering goods from a tradesman, etc.\" -- So, when a guy says > Muito obrigado he´s meant to say > I´m grateful for what you did to me and I´m bound to you because of that or an alternative short form > I remain grateful so we can translate it back > Eu fico grato (Indeed, instead of \"obrigado\", a guy can say \"grato\", it´s a little bit more formal, at least in brazilian portuguese, dunno in european portuguese. And a girl can say \"grata\" as well.) So, when a girl says > Muito obrigada we can repeat the process above and get > Eu fico grata The difference grato/grata reflects the different genres of the thanking person. Your profile tell us you know french, so we can use an example in this language. When a girl is introduced to someone and she says: > Enchantée it can translates to the english > Charming I don´t know whether it´s usual for a guy to say \"Enchanté\" (as opposed to \"enchantée\") in such situation (it doesn´t sound that mannish ;-> but it´s an example of a french expression which depends on who´s saying that.