Portuguese What It Is Almost Extinct In The European Portugueseâ€¦ Vã³s Quereis Saber?

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Isabel Saturday 04th of March 2006 07:01:20 AM
What it is almost extinct in the European Portugueseâ€¦ - A language is in a constant change. That’s a fact whether you speak English, French, Spanish, or Portuguese. Some expressions or words that sound for you a mistake might be one day acceptable. The changing of this has also to do with the practical sense that a speaker has. The words or expressions that are not very easy or are too hard to pronounce become almost extinct and are replaced by other words more adaptable to the speaker’s needs.
In case of Portuguese, the 2nd person, plural “vós” is almost disappearing (it’s mostly associated to religious speech and it’s usually spoken in the north of the country) but it is still taught in school to Portuguese students, (which is a great headache for them…) and probably appears in books or grammars for foreign learners. If you’re surprised, don’t be. We no longer say to a group of people “Vós quereis comer?” . No. Instead we use “vocês” and then the verb conjugated in the 3rd person, plural “Vocês querem comer?”
The same thing is happening with the Simple Future. It is becoming more often saying “Na próxima semana vamos visitar o João” and not “Na próxima semana iremos visitar o João”. It doesn’t mean that we don’t use it anymore, but not so often as the verb “Ir” in the Present + infinitive. We\'re becoming addicted to it...
A Portuguese speaker does everything just to avoid the complicated use of the verb in the Future and the reflexive. Eg: “Eu escrever-lhe-ei uma carta.” “Eu vou lhe escrever uma carta” – which is the simplest way to say this? Second sentence, in my opinion… even though I prefer the sound of the other one…:)

lyddi Sunday 12th of March 2006 03:29:14 AM
- So, you do not use TU and VOS?! Not at all?
Instead of TU there is VOCE now, and also VOCES is used instead of VOS?
Am I right?
This is very important to me. I am interested in "European" Portuguese.
Thank you.

Isabel Wednesday 29th of March 2006 04:28:27 AM
- funny - now that I renew my image, my posts are all back...
sorry lyddi for not answering sooner to your doubt...

Well, in the Portuguese European “Tu” is used in an informal way, when you are addressing to a friend, for example. As for “Você”, it is not so often used as in Brazil and it is mostly considered impolite. The formal and more polite way we often use is “ Sr.” or “Sra” and the verb in the 3rd person, singular. For example: “O sr. bebe vinho?” or sometimes the person is even omitted, but the use of the verb implies already that politeness. “bebe vinho?”.

ego Tuesday 08th of August 2006 05:37:25 PM
- Muito interessante, ainda que poda dizer que já tinha ouvido destes aspectos da língua, mas é sempre útil ler várias opiniões.
Até

gzimize Tuesday 08th of August 2006 08:22:19 PM
- In Brazilian Portuguese occur one thing that makes the most conservative people get so angry...
The right to say is: Amo-te (I love you). The pronoun te can stand at the begining of a sentence. But people often say Te amo. Another example:
Deixa-me / Me deixa / Leave me alone

klaus Tuesday 15th of August 2006 07:48:22 PM
- In some regions in Brazil people also say: \"tu é\", \"tu foi\", they say the 2nd person \"tu\" and conjugate the verb in the 3rd person.

Fabiano_Wenig Wednesday 20th of September 2006 03:20:00 AM
Corrigir-te-ei, se mo permitires. - [quote][i]Originally posted by Isabel[/i]

A language is in a constant change. That’s a fact whether you speak English, French, Spanish, or Portuguese. Some expressions or words that sound for you a mistake might be one day acceptable. The changing of this has also to do with the practical sense that a speaker has. The words or expressions that are not very easy or are too hard to pronounce become almost extinct and are replaced by other words more adaptable to the speaker’s needs.
In case of Portuguese, the 3rd person, singular “vós” is almost disappearing (it’s mostly associated to religious speech and it’s usually spoken in the north of the country) but it is still taught in school to Portuguese students, (which is a great headache for them…) and probably appears in books or grammars for foreign learners. If you’re surprised, don’t be. We no longer say to a group of people “Vós quereis comer?” . No. Instead we use “vocês” and then the verb conjugated in the 3rd person, plural “Vocês querem comer?”
The same thing is happening with the Simple Future. It is becoming more often saying “Na próxima semana vamos visitar o João” and not “Na próxima semana iremos visitar o João”. It doesn’t mean that we don’t use it anymore, but not so often as the verb “Ir” in the Present + infinitive. We\'re becoming addicted to it...
A Portuguese speaker does everything just to avoid the complicated use of the verb in the Future and the reflexive. Eg: “Eu escrever-lhe-ei uma carta.” “Eu vou lhe escrever uma carta” – which is the simplest way to say this? Second sentence, in my opinion… even though I prefer the sound of the other one…:)

[/quote]

Na verdade gostei tanto do tópico que estou postando aqui para que ele volte ao topo da lista.

Isabel, uma pequena correção, tu escreveste: \"In case of Portuguese, the 3rd person, singular “vós”...\", mas VÓS é a 3ª pessoa do plural.

Creio que toda e qualquer lingua viva é como o nome diz: viva. O português é uma língua neo-latina que provém do latim vulgar ou seja foi criada pelo povo e não pela realeza, não pelos eruditos. Já nasceu fora de controle de qualquer Academia de Letras. Com o uso consagrou-se como língua. Foi adotada então pelos doutores. Mas continuou sendo cria da plebe, do povo, da massa. Ele é nosso. E como tal vai obedecer os pais, quer queiramos ou não, quer os doutores queiram ou não. Felizmente ou infelizmente. O que fazer?
Talvez... \"orar e vigiar\". :)

Sede felizes.

Isabel Wednesday 20th of September 2006 05:57:24 PM
- xii Obrigada pela correcção, já vou editar o texto. Obrigada. :)

Fabiano_Wenig Wednesday 20th of September 2006 06:01:27 PM
- Não por isso. Estou a seu dispor.

Isabel Wednesday 20th of September 2006 08:16:58 PM
- Oh pá... afinal voltei a editar porque dei de novo pelo erro. A conjugação do \"vós\" é tão complicada que nem sabemos como defenir este pronome pessoal na sua posição. O vós não está na 3ª pessoa do singular, nem na 3a pessoa do plural, mas sim... na 2a pessoa do plural: :)

Singular

1ª pessoa: EU
2ª pessoa: TU
3ª pessoa: ELE/ELA

Plural

1ª pessoa: NÓS
[b]2ª pessoa: VÓS[/b]
3ª pessoa: ELES/ELAS

Ufa, está esclarecido :D

Fabiano_Wenig Wednesday 20th of September 2006 10:01:38 PM
- Acho que estamos a beber muito café. :D:D:D

Phrasebase Archive
	Isabel	Saturday 04th of March 2006 07:01:20 AM
	What it is almost extinct in the European Portugueseâ€¦ - A language is in a constant change. That’s a fact whether you speak English, French, Spanish, or Portuguese. Some expressions or words that sound for you a mistake might be one day acceptable. The changing of this has also to do with the practical sense that a speaker has. The words or expressions that are not very easy or are too hard to pronounce become almost extinct and are replaced by other words more adaptable to the speaker’s needs. In case of Portuguese, the 2nd person, plural “vós” is almost disappearing (it’s mostly associated to religious speech and it’s usually spoken in the north of the country) but it is still taught in school to Portuguese students, (which is a great headache for them…) and probably appears in books or grammars for foreign learners. If you’re surprised, don’t be. We no longer say to a group of people “Vós quereis comer?” . No. Instead we use “vocês” and then the verb conjugated in the 3rd person, plural “Vocês querem comer?” The same thing is happening with the Simple Future. It is becoming more often saying “Na próxima semana vamos visitar o João” and not “Na próxima semana iremos visitar o João”. It doesn’t mean that we don’t use it anymore, but not so often as the verb “Ir” in the Present + infinitive. We\'re becoming addicted to it... A Portuguese speaker does everything just to avoid the complicated use of the verb in the Future and the reflexive. Eg: “Eu escrever-lhe-ei uma carta.” “Eu vou lhe escrever uma carta” – which is the simplest way to say this? Second sentence, in my opinion… even though I prefer the sound of the other one…:)
	lyddi	Sunday 12th of March 2006 03:29:14 AM
	- So, you do not use TU and VOS?! Not at all? Instead of TU there is VOCE now, and also VOCES is used instead of VOS? Am I right? This is very important to me. I am interested in "European" Portuguese. Thank you.
	Isabel	Wednesday 29th of March 2006 04:28:27 AM
	- funny - now that I renew my image, my posts are all back... sorry lyddi for not answering sooner to your doubt... Well, in the Portuguese European “Tu” is used in an informal way, when you are addressing to a friend, for example. As for “Você”, it is not so often used as in Brazil and it is mostly considered impolite. The formal and more polite way we often use is “ Sr.” or “Sra” and the verb in the 3rd person, singular. For example: “O sr. bebe vinho?” or sometimes the person is even omitted, but the use of the verb implies already that politeness. “bebe vinho?”.
	ego	Tuesday 08th of August 2006 05:37:25 PM
	- Muito interessante, ainda que poda dizer que já tinha ouvido destes aspectos da língua, mas é sempre útil ler várias opiniões. Até
	gzimize	Tuesday 08th of August 2006 08:22:19 PM
	- In Brazilian Portuguese occur one thing that makes the most conservative people get so angry... The right to say is: Amo-te (I love you). The pronoun te can stand at the begining of a sentence. But people often say Te amo. Another example: Deixa-me / Me deixa / Leave me alone
	klaus	Tuesday 15th of August 2006 07:48:22 PM
	- In some regions in Brazil people also say: \"tu é\", \"tu foi\", they say the 2nd person \"tu\" and conjugate the verb in the 3rd person.
	Fabiano_Wenig	Wednesday 20th of September 2006 03:20:00 AM
	Corrigir-te-ei, se mo permitires. - [quote][i]Originally posted by Isabel[/i] A language is in a constant change. That’s a fact whether you speak English, French, Spanish, or Portuguese. Some expressions or words that sound for you a mistake might be one day acceptable. The changing of this has also to do with the practical sense that a speaker has. The words or expressions that are not very easy or are too hard to pronounce become almost extinct and are replaced by other words more adaptable to the speaker’s needs. In case of Portuguese, the 3rd person, singular “vós” is almost disappearing (it’s mostly associated to religious speech and it’s usually spoken in the north of the country) but it is still taught in school to Portuguese students, (which is a great headache for them…) and probably appears in books or grammars for foreign learners. If you’re surprised, don’t be. We no longer say to a group of people “Vós quereis comer?” . No. Instead we use “vocês” and then the verb conjugated in the 3rd person, plural “Vocês querem comer?” The same thing is happening with the Simple Future. It is becoming more often saying “Na próxima semana vamos visitar o João” and not “Na próxima semana iremos visitar o João”. It doesn’t mean that we don’t use it anymore, but not so often as the verb “Ir” in the Present + infinitive. We\'re becoming addicted to it... A Portuguese speaker does everything just to avoid the complicated use of the verb in the Future and the reflexive. Eg: “Eu escrever-lhe-ei uma carta.” “Eu vou lhe escrever uma carta” – which is the simplest way to say this? Second sentence, in my opinion… even though I prefer the sound of the other one…:) [/quote] Na verdade gostei tanto do tópico que estou postando aqui para que ele volte ao topo da lista. Isabel, uma pequena correção, tu escreveste: \"In case of Portuguese, the 3rd person, singular “vós”...\", mas VÓS é a 3ª pessoa do plural. Creio que toda e qualquer lingua viva é como o nome diz: viva. O português é uma língua neo-latina que provém do latim vulgar ou seja foi criada pelo povo e não pela realeza, não pelos eruditos. Já nasceu fora de controle de qualquer Academia de Letras. Com o uso consagrou-se como língua. Foi adotada então pelos doutores. Mas continuou sendo cria da plebe, do povo, da massa. Ele é nosso. E como tal vai obedecer os pais, quer queiramos ou não, quer os doutores queiram ou não. Felizmente ou infelizmente. O que fazer? Talvez... \"orar e vigiar\". :) Sede felizes.
	Isabel	Wednesday 20th of September 2006 05:57:24 PM
	- xii Obrigada pela correcção, já vou editar o texto. Obrigada. :)
	Fabiano_Wenig	Wednesday 20th of September 2006 06:01:27 PM
	- Não por isso. Estou a seu dispor.
	Isabel	Wednesday 20th of September 2006 08:16:58 PM
	- Oh pá... afinal voltei a editar porque dei de novo pelo erro. A conjugação do \"vós\" é tão complicada que nem sabemos como defenir este pronome pessoal na sua posição. O vós não está na 3ª pessoa do singular, nem na 3a pessoa do plural, mas sim... na 2a pessoa do plural: :) Singular 1ª pessoa: EU 2ª pessoa: TU 3ª pessoa: ELE/ELA Plural 1ª pessoa: NÓS [b]2ª pessoa: VÓS[/b] 3ª pessoa: ELES/ELAS Ufa, está esclarecido :D
	Fabiano_Wenig	Wednesday 20th of September 2006 10:01:38 PM
	- Acho que estamos a beber muito café. :D:D:D