Romanian Aceasta Sau Aceastńâ? The Romanian Demonstrative - Pronoun Vs. Adjective

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mike111
Friday 16th of November 2007 07:23:07 PM
Aceasta sau aceast─â?: What would be the reason for someone to use the demonstrative pronouns from the left side over the right side? To my understanding, they have the same meaning.

Fem.
Aceasta, aceea - aceast─â, acea
Acestea, acelea - aceste, acele

Masc.
Acesta, acele - acest, acel
Ace┼čtia, aceia - ace┼čti, acei

Ie
Aceasta carte - this(f) book
Aceast─â carte - this(f) book

Ace┼čtia c├óini - these(m) dogs
Ace┼čti c├óini - these(m) dogs



Lina
Saturday 17th of November 2007 03:45:00 AM
Bun─â Mike!

You are right, there is no significant difference between the demonstrative + noun(aceast─â carte) and noun + demonstrative(cartea aceasta).
The Romanian demonstrative, unlike English, can take different forms, depending on gender and number.

Another difference refers to the placement of the demonstrative as to the noun, in Romanian it can either precede or follow the noun.


Example:

acest b─âiat(this boy) - noun without article

b─âiatul acesta(this boy) - noun with definite article and the demonstrative with additional particle "a"


Acest băiat este înalt/This boy is tall.
Băiatul acesta este înalt/This boy is tall.


Aceast─â carte
Cartea aceasta

*Ace┼čti c├óini
*C├óinii ace┼čtia


*masculine - acela not acele


neuter:

acest/acesta(this) - aceste/acestea(these)
acel/acela(that) - acele/acelea(those)


I hope it helps!

Lina



mike111
Saturday 17th of November 2007 04:08:52 AM
Mulţumesc Lina!

And thanks for correcting me with acele->acela.

So if I understand you correctly, if you place the pronoun after the noun you will 1) always use the noun including the definite article and 2) you always use the pronoun ending with the a (ie acesta). And if the pronoun precedes the noun, then you use the the other (ie acest).

Sorry if that is a bit hard to follow... It would be easier if I could refer to either list by a name. Is there a word that describes both instances of pronoun usage?

Thanks for your help! :)


mike111
Saturday 17th of November 2007 08:08:55 AM
I hope you don't mind me asking another question.

Under what condition would one chose "acest b─âiat" over "b─âiatul acesta" and vice versa? Personal preference? Writing / speaking?



Lina
Saturday 17th of November 2007 10:07:52 PM
Yes, you have understood very well!

There is no condition, both options have the same meaning and you can choose one of them, as your wish. The first one is more easier:)


mike111
Monday 19th of November 2007 06:47:33 PM
Mulţumesc Lina! înţeleg acum.


mike111
Tuesday 20th of November 2007 06:14:18 AM
nu înţeleg acum :(:( Well, maybe....

Lina, Sorry to keep nagging on something that is probably much easier than I am making it.

With reference to kenny's "this, that game". From the understanding I got from your post, does that mean that we were using the wrong version of 'this/that' in the game?

Unless of course each of the following is correct romanian:

acest b─âiat
acesta b─âiat

b─âiatul acest
b─âiatul acesta

If this is true, than my unstanding will be complete. ...hopefully :)


Lina
Wednesday 21st of November 2007 01:59:35 PM
Don't worry, you understand better and better/Nu te îngrijora, întelegi din ce in ce mai bine.

It's seems easy but isn't:)

To understand completly you just need to make the difference between the demonstrative pronoun and demonstrative adjective!


In Dominick's game we practice just the demonstrative pronoun.

For better understanding I'll give you the demonstrative pronoun forms and demonstrative adjective as well.


I


1. Acesta este mai interesant / This is more interesting

*Acesta - it's a demonstrative pronoun which replace a name

*What is more interesting? This is more interesting / Ce este mai interesant? Acesta este mai interesant.



* The demonstrative pronoun


Proximity : this/these


Masculine sg.

Vlad este aici / Vlad is here.
El este aici / He is here.
Acesta este Vlad/ This is Vlad.

Masculine pl.

Vlad ┼či Bogdan sunt aici / Vlad and Bogdan are here.
Ei sunt aici / They are here.
Ace┼čtia sunt Vlad ┼či Bogdan / These are Vlad and Bogdan.

Feminine sg.

Ana este aici / Anne is here.
Ea este aici / She is here.
Aceasta este Ana / This is Anne.

Feminine pl.

Ana ┼či Maria sunt aici / Anne and Maria are here.
Ele sunt aici / They are here.
Acestea sunt Ana ┼či Maria / These are Ana and Maria.


Neuter sg.

Dicţionarul este pe masă / The dictionary is on the table.
Dictionarul este aici / The dictionary is here.
Acesta este dicţionarul / This is the dictionary.

Neuter pl.

Dicţionarele sunt pe masă / The dictionaries are on the table.
Dicţionarele sunt aici / The dictionaries are here.
Acestea sunt dicţionarele / These are the dictionaries.



Remoteness : that, those


Masculine sg.

Vlad este acolo / Vlad is there.
He is there / El este acolo.
Acela este Vlad.


Masculine pl.

Vlad ┼či Bogdan sunt acolo / Vlad and Bogdan are there.
Ei sunt acolo / They are there.
Aceia sunt Vlad ┼či Bogdan.


Feminine sg.

Ana este acolo / Anne is there.
Ea este acolo / She is there.
Aceea este Ana / That is Anne.


Feminine pl.

Ana ┼či Maria sunt acolo / Anne and Maria are there.
Ele sunt acolo / They are there.
Acelea sunt Ana ┼či Maria / Those are Anne and Maria.


Neuter sg.

Dicţionarul român este pe raft / The Romanian dictionary is on the shelf.
Dicţionarul român este acolo / The Romanian dictionary is there.
Acela este dicţionarul român / That is Romanian dictionary.


Neuter pl.


Dic┼úionarele rom├óne┼čti sunt pe raft / The Romanian dictionaries are on the shelf.
Dic┼úionarele rom├óne┼čti sunt acolo / The Romanian dictionaries are there.
Acelea sunt dic┼úionarele rom├óne┼čti / Those are Romanian dictionaries.




II



1. Acest subiect este mai interesant / This subject is more interesting

2. Subiectul acesta este mai interesant / This subject is more interesting

In this case we have two options, as I told you, these sentences have the same meaning.


*acest/acesta - it's a pronominal adjective which don't replace a name but determined it, and has an attribute value


*Which subject is more interesting? This subject / Care subiect este mai interesant? Acest subiect or Subiectul acesta.


The demonstrative adjective

*Proximity :this, these

m/sg. : b─âiatul acesta / acest b─âiat
m/pl. : b─âie┼úii ace┼čtia / ace┼čti b─âie┼úi

f/sg. : fata aceasta / aceast─â fat─â
f/pl. : fetele acestea / aceste fete

n/sg. : scaunul acesta / acest scaun
n/pl. : scaunele acestea / aceste scaune


*remoteness : that, those

m/sg. : b─âiatul acela / acel b─âiat
m/pl. : băieţii aceia / acei băieţi

f/sg. : fata aceea / acea fata
f/pl. : fetele acelea / acele fete

n/sg. : scaunul acela / acel scaun
n/pl. : scaunele acelea / acele scaune



If something is not clear don't hesitate to ask:)


Lina




mike111
Wednesday 21st of November 2007 09:25:53 PM
Salut Lina,

I will read through this several times and if I have any questions I will certainly ask. Thanks for putting the time to explain this to me.

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