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Laniths_Advocate Sunday 08th of January 2006 07:19:21 AM
Hej! - Hej alla! Jag är nytt att tala svenska.

Jag vet inte mycket svenska och talar inte så bra, men jag tror att svenska intressant är. :) Jag heter Alex och jag är 15.

Jag vet inte hur man säger "If I say something wrong, can you correct it?". ^_^; Men kan du tack beser det för mig? Tack så mycket! Jag vet verkligen inte mycket...förlåt...

Tack igen!

Jolin Sunday 08th of January 2006 06:24:01 PM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Laniths Advocate[/i]

Hej alla! Jag är nytt att tala svenska.

Jag vet inte mycket svenska och talar inte så bra, men jag tror att svenska intressant är. :) Jag heter Alex och jag är 15.

Jag vet inte hur man säger "If I say something wrong, can you correct it?". ^_^; Men kan du tack beser det för mig? Tack så mycket! Jag vet verkligen inte mycket...förlåt...

Tack igen![/quote]

Reply in English:

No need to say "sorry" ! We all begin from zero in a new language. You speak better Swedish than I speak Thai! The phrase you asked for will be "Om jag säger någonting fel, kan du rätta det?"

Same reply in Swedish:

Du behöver inte be om ursäkt! Vi börjar alla från noll när vi lär oss ett nytt språk. Du talar bättre svenska än jag talar thai! Frasen du frågade om blir "Om jag säger någonting fel, kan du rätta det?"

Since it seems you would like to be corrected, I take the liberty to adjust your message (and, please, do also correct my English when needed!) One difficulty is that "know" in English has no one-to-one translation - it could be "kunna", "veta" or "känna", but if you translate from Swedish "kunna" is not always "know", and "känna" would mostly be translated as "feel".
"Kunna" is something in the likes of "having ability in/to", "having knowledge", "veta" is something in the likes of "having awareness of".

I use ... where your Swedish is impeccable.

Hej allihop! Jag är nybörjare i svenska.

Jag kan inte mycket svenska och talar inte så bra, men jag tror att svenska är intressant. ... Skulle du kunna hjälpa mig (med detta)? Jag kan verkligen inte mycket..

As you see I rephrased your question completely.
I think, with "beser" you might be looking for "bistå" (=help), which is rather formal and heavy language. Maybe even the really old "bestå mig" (= give me), which I haven't heard anyone say in daily speech, unless for fun.
If I don't rephrase your question it would be
"Skulle du kunna bistå mig med detta?" (Heavy language, sounds a little corny)
"Skulle du kunna bestå mig med detta?" (Like someone pretending to be from the 19th century, don't use, sounds awfully corny)

kalrarii Sunday 08th of January 2006 06:42:03 PM
- Hejsan! Jag undrar bara.... försöker du att kunna Finlands svenska eller Sveriges svenska? Om du vill lärä sig Finlands svenska så kan jag hjälpa dig med det. (:

Hallo! I was just wondering.... are you trying to learn Finland's Swedish or Sweden's Swedish? If you want to learn Finland's Swedish then I can help you with it. (:

Laniths_Advocate Monday 09th of January 2006 07:06:27 AM
- Jag lär mig Sveriges svenska, men tack, i alla fall. :)

Jolin: Tack så mycket! :D Jag kan inte erinra mig vad "beser" var...Jag skrev det sen igår natt. ^^;

In English (well, this is what I was *attempting* to have it mean):

I'm learning Sweden's swedish, but thanks, anyway. :)

Jolin: Thanks a lot! :D I can't remember what "beser" was...I wrote it late last night. ^^;

I hope "erinra sig" was the right verb to use. I was going off intuition, since the German 'to remember' is also reflexive and is "sich erinnern." I also hope I put the "inte" in the right place...in German, when you have "to be able to," the other verb always goes at the end of the sentence/clause, so I get confused with things like that in Swedish. ^^; (German isn't my native language, but it's the only one outside of English that I've really been learning long enough to get into the tiny, gritty, grammatical details.)

I didn't know that "kunna" could also be used for knowledge. :) That was very helpful, thank you. It didn't come up in any of my online dictionaries...I believe I know what you meant with the differences between it and the other two. ^^

I hope no one minds that I'm using this topic mostly to practice my swedish...I was worried about doing it in Det svenska rummet since most of the Swedish there is far beyond where I am, and it looked like a topic for fluent speakers. ^^;

Jag har också en fråga på (is that right? I've seen för, om, and på used for "about") "det/den." Jag vet inte varför "det" är i "det svenska rummet." "-Et" är redan där...

I also have a question about "det/den." I don't know why "det" is in "the swedish room." "-Et" is already there...

I believe I saw somewhere that you use "det/den" when you have an adjective followed by a definite noun, but I'm not completely sure. Also, I'm not quite sure which to use when referencing something "genderless" (such as something someone just said, or a verb). I think "det" is mostly used, but again I'm not entirely sure. Any additional information would be appreciated. :)

Tack!

kalrarii Monday 09th of January 2006 08:22:49 AM
- Den/det are only used for nouns. Every object (ex. apple, orange, table, person, people) is either den/det. Den is more common, though, so if you're not sure use den. (:

With verbs the placing is sort of weird:
'The cat will run.' = 'Katten ska springa.'
'The cat runs.' = 'Katten springer.'
'The cat is running.' = 'Katten springer.'
'The cat ran.' = 'Katten sprang.'
'The cat that was running.' = 'Katten som sprang.'

And so forth. It's just weird. I recommend getting a Swedish grammar book. (: I had one myself when I was learning, and it did help clear some stuff up.

The thing with having 'det' in 'Det Svenska Rummet' is one of the grammar things. It goes for both den/det (and they mean the same thing, but it's like a gender thing - you say an and a, just like you say den for certain nouns and det for certain nouns). 'Den Svenska Klassen' for instance.

Sorry I couldn't really explain that. >.< You'll get the hang of it though, don't worry.

Jolin Monday 09th of January 2006 07:06:38 PM
- Now I think you have come across real difficulties :-)
It is another case where there is not a one-to-one coupling.

The room could be called either "Svenska rummet" = "Swedish room" or "Det svenska rummet" = "The Swedish room".

It could also be "Svenskt rum" = "Swedish room", but it does not sound good, as it is not a separate concept, it is a room among other rooms.
You can find this construct for example in organization names like "Svenskt Flyg" (Swedish Aviation), where it is more suitable.

The "-et" in itself does not replace "the" in this case. Often, you need the "det", but not always. "Det" could also be used to point out one from others.

Rummet var tomt = The room was empty
Det rummet var tomt = That room was empty
Det där rummet var tomt = That room was empty (when pointing to it)
Det här rummet var tomt = This room was empty

The same goes for "den"

Lådan var tom = The box was empty
Den lådan var tom = That box was empty
Den där lådan var tom = That box was empty (when pointing to it)
Den här lådan var tom = This box was empty

Genderless would be "det" as you say.
Jag visste inte det = I didn't know that.
Det är en annan sak = That's another thing (note that it is "en sak", still "det är", and the phrase is abstract and could be replaced by "That's another story" or the likes of it.

I am not good at the grammar mumbo-jumbo (especially not in English), so unfortunately I could not give you any good rules.

Rikard Monday 09th of January 2006 07:09:26 PM
- "erinra" is correct swedish but it's not really used that much. In daily speak you say "komma ihåg" instead.

Regarding the "double definitive" in "[u]Det[/u] svenska rumm[u]et[/u]". This is used quite frequently. Often when trying to emphasize "The" (or this, etc.). I think there's a rule for this but i can't remember which, hehe.
My instinct tells me this is more usual when there's an adjective for the noun, in this case "svenska"

quietspeaker Monday 09th of January 2006 08:06:57 PM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Laniths Advocate[/i]
Jag har också en fråga på (is that right? I've seen för, om, and på used for "about") "det/den." Jag vet inte varför "det" är i "det svenska rummet." "-Et" är redan där...

I also have a question about "det/den." I don't know why "det" is in "the swedish room." "-Et" is already there...

I believe I saw somewhere that you use "det/den" when you have an adjective followed by a definite noun, but I'm not completely sure. Also, I'm not quite sure which to use when referencing something "genderless" (such as something someone just said, or a verb). I think "det" is mostly used, but again I'm not entirely sure. Any additional information would be appreciated. :)

Tack![/quote]

I've learned my Swedish by studying it as a foreign language, which is why I hope I can explain some stuff in an "outsider" way:

[u]Pronouns den & det[/u]
Like Kala and Jolin said, "den" is used for "en words" and "det" for "ett words". (People here seem to talk about common nouns and neuter nouns, but that sounds a bit more scientific than my school books :D) "Det" is also used for things that are not singular words, such as someone's opinion or the fact that something happens.

(... And to go deeper, there's "Det äts mycket hamburgare i Amerika." Keep learning...)

[u]Definite Articles den & det:[/u]
(Wow, that "Svenskt flyg" thing is new to me! Thanks! (Now that I think of it, Svensk Kassaservice did sound weird...))

1) when a noun described by an adjective is definite, you use both "det" ("den") and "-et" ("-en"), and the definite form of the adjective: det vackra huset

2) when a definite group "adjective+noun" is very common (or a name), it's sometimes allowed (or even obligatory) to drop the "det" ("den") ---> svenska språket, Atlantiska oceanen

3) when the relative pronoun "som" (meaning "that") comes next, you drop the "-et" (-"en"): det vackra hus (som) jag äger... (but when it means "which", you don't: "Atlantiska oceanen, som är ganska stor, ...")

Looks like I forgot the plurals. Well, it's the same thing with them... :)

Rikard Monday 09th of January 2006 10:09:17 PM
- EDIT: nothing......

Jolin Tuesday 10th of January 2006 04:11:36 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by quietspeaker[/i]

3) when the relative pronoun "som" (meaning "that") comes next, you drop the "-et" (-"en"): det vackra hus (som) jag äger... (but when it means "which", you don't: "Atlantiska oceanen, som är ganska stor, ...")

[/quote]

Now, you should really teach Swedish! As a matter of fact, you frequently hear the likes of "det vackra hus[b]et[/b] som jag äger" - and if you are a native Swedish student writing it, your harsh native language teacher will get his red pen there in no time.

Maybe I should start a thread with colloquial Swedish to teach all the bad language constructs you hear every day, which of course are banned from the grammatically correct study books. Hehe...

"Han tillhör en av de främsta inom sitt område"
"Han hade kunnat gått"

etc.

Laniths_Advocate Tuesday 10th of January 2006 08:25:13 AM
- Oooh, jag tycker att jag förstår på den/det nu. Tack! Ni hjälper mig så mycket!

(Oooh, I think I understand about den/det now. Thanks! You (all) are helping me so much!)

So det/den are demonstrative pronounce, but not quite as uncommonly used as in English, if you know what I mean (since when referring to a specific room from previously in the conversation, in english we just say "the room"...kk, I think I got it). Och Jolin, du hjälper mig också verkligen. :)

(And Jolin, you really help me too. I'm not sure about the placement of "verkligen" in that sentence...)

I hate to ask yet another question...but how do you form passive? ^^; I've looked it up but usually I end up confusing myself...

I think I've got the basic gist of it but I'll try an example:

Han slogs.

Attempted meaning (the site where I looked it up just said you add 's' to the past form...):

He was hit.

How would I say, "He was hit by her"? I've seen that it's more common just to use active construction, but just in case I ever need to use passive for something...^^;

I've also seen 'bli' be used...Han blev slog?

Tack igen! :)

Rikard Wednesday 11th of January 2006 01:28:43 AM
- Hope you don't mind if i take the liberty to answer.

It's true that in many cases you add an "s" to make it passive. In this case you can't though cause "han slogs" mean "he was fighting" (present "han slåss")

You're actually almost giving the correct version which is "han blev slagen"
The verb in this case i believe always ends with either -en or -ad.
For example:
Han blev slagen (as above)
Han blev rakad (he was shaved)

I think you always can use "bli" to make a sentence passive but it's not always used. For example you could as easily say

han rakades (av barberaren) - He was shaved (by the barber)

As in english you often have somone who does something to you so the passive form i almost always followed by a "av någon"(by someone).

I don't have any grammar book nearby which probobly could have made much more sense out of my mumbojumbo. Don't hesitate to ask again if you need help. And perhaps someone else can help here as well?

quietspeaker Wednesday 11th of January 2006 02:43:31 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Jolin[/i]
Now, you should really teach Swedish! As a matter of fact, you frequently hear the likes of "det vackra huset som jag äger" - and if you are a native Swedish student writing it, your harsh native language teacher will get his red pen there in no time.[/quote]
Tack ska du ha! :) (In the summer 2004, I took an extra (Finland-)Swedish course and the teacher turned out to be old-fashioned enough to insist on spelling "skall" always with the two Ls! [i]Those where the days[/i]... ♪ Sommartider hej hej sommertider...)

[quote][i]Originally posted by Rikard[/i]You're actually almost giving the correct version which is "han blev slagen"

The verb in this case i believe always ends with either -en or -ad.[/quote]

You're dealing with past participles! Here I go again with my junior high terminology:

It's "-ad; -at; -ade" with the verbs whose supine (the form that is used in perfect and pluperfect: they have driven) ends with "-at". ("-ar verbs")

"-t; -t; -ta" with the ones whose supine ends with "-t" (normal "-ker -per -ter -ser -xer verbs")

"-d; -t; -da" with the ones whose supine ends with "-d" ( normal "-[voiced consonant here]er verbs" + normal verbs with "-ra" in infinitive and a one-syllable present tense)

"-dd; -tt; -dda" with the normal one-syllable ones.

"-en; -et, -na" with most of the "irregular" verbs (verbs that change vowels and have one-syllable imperfects... supine ends with "-it").

(Errors are possible, because I try to remember this one by heart:

"Men retoriken stelnade i munnen
och siste talarn slutade sitt tal
och såg sig [b]frusen[/b] kring i Mimas sal
där livets resa nu var längre [b]hunnen[/b]
än någonting som drömt[b]s[/b] i Tajos dal" (wherever that is... the dale, I mean.) (but there's a nice "s" passive for you. although "hade drömts" would have been even clearer. i guess a poet must think of the rhythm, too...)

[quote]I think you always can use "bli" to make a sentence passive but it's not always used.[/quote]

Sometimes, at least when you're talking about long-lasting circumstances, you should use "vara" ('to be') : [i]vara hatad[/i] (to be hated = to [b]remain[/b] hated); [i]bli rånad[/i] (to be robbed = to [b]get[/b] robbed)

[quote]As in english you often have somone who does something to you so the passive form i almost always followed by a "av någon"(by someone).[/quote] [url="http://www.phrasebase.com/forum/read.php?TID=12311"]By a storm wind[/url], for example :D

And Lanith(')s Advocate, your Swedish is more understandable than you think! I see what you mean even when I haven't read it in English yet! :)

-EDITED A MILLION TIMES-

Rikard Wednesday 11th of January 2006 03:21:26 AM
- hmm yes. i got stuck in the past tense fomr some reason. Perhaps cause somone wrote "blev slogs" hehe.

And there you have the other endings. I mentally tried a couple of words but only came up with the -en and -ad endings hehe. Perhaps i should have tried som more :).

Good job!

Jolin Wednesday 11th of January 2006 04:30:45 AM
- I really more and more understand how lucky I am to have Swedish native, and not having to learn it as a foreigner :-)

I thought of another horrid example of passive form, where the subject changes:

Han retades = He was teasing ( someone )
Han retades av de andra = He was teased by the others

Actually, the meaning must come from the context. Compare:
Han retades = He was teasing
Hans sinnen retades = His senses were alerted (what's the proper English word here, anyway?)

Han slogs = He was fighting
Han slogs av en tanke = A thought struck him
Ängen slogs = The field was mowed

Edit: A wordbook taught me that "mow" is not only used for lawns, so I could replace the ###. And thanks Rikard for the scythe!

(Where ### is, there should be the word describing when you cut the grass in a field with the tool the grim reaper carries, I don't know the word for that one either)

I see now I should remove a star from my pretended English knowledge in my profile :-)

Rikard Wednesday 11th of January 2006 04:48:54 AM
- The Grim reaper carries with him a scythe (på svenska: en lie) :)

Laniths_Advocate Sunday 15th of January 2006 12:19:55 PM
Even MORE questions!! - Oh, wow. I better start memorizing just past tense and present perfect then before I think about passive. ^_^;;

Jag hoppas att jag ska tala som infödd slutligen. Så mycket att kunna! Jag har storfamilj i Sverige. Jag vill resa (till?) där.

(I looked high and low for "a native" and infödd is what I found...I hope it's right...I hope that whole thing is right. ^^; )

Attempted meaning:

I hope that I'll speak like a native eventually. So much to know(/learn?)! I have extended family in Sweden. I want to travel (to?) there. :)

Hmm...Jag har en annan fråga på "också". Specifically, about its word order. In German, you would say, "I speak also Swedish," to sound most correct (at least this is what I've seen), or, "Ich spreche auch Schwedisch." Is it like this in Swedish too? "Jag talar också svenska." Or would "också" go after "svenska"? The same goes for "inte"...I know that in subordinate clauses, the "inte" goes in between the subject and the verb (does it do that for också too?), because I saw that in a word order topic. Are there any other special things like that?

Tack igen och igen. ^_^;

Rikard Sunday 15th of January 2006 07:07:20 PM
- You did rather well. This is how i would phrase your sentence:

Jag hoppas att jag kan tala som en infödd en dag. Men det är så mycket man ska kunna (veta). Jag har stor släkt i Sverige så gag vill resa dit.

Note that when not talking about your closest family members; brothers, parents etc you use the swedish word "släkt" and not "familj".
Also, this was nota direct translation of you sentence since that often doesn't come out right in swedish.

And yeah, "infödd" eqauls native

Regading "okcså"
"Jag talar också svenska."
"Jag talar svenska också"

Both these sentences are grmatically correct. Which one you use depend on the sitation. The first one you say rather casually. Perhaps something you "just happen" to mention (hehe). The other one is a more firm statement that you indeed speak swedish.

Phrasebase Archive
	Laniths_Advocate	Sunday 08th of January 2006 07:19:21 AM
	Hej! - Hej alla! Jag är nytt att tala svenska. Jag vet inte mycket svenska och talar inte så bra, men jag tror att svenska intressant är. :) Jag heter Alex och jag är 15. Jag vet inte hur man säger "If I say something wrong, can you correct it?". ^_^; Men kan du tack beser det för mig? Tack så mycket! Jag vet verkligen inte mycket...förlåt... Tack igen!
	Jolin	Sunday 08th of January 2006 06:24:01 PM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Laniths Advocate[/i] Hej alla! Jag är nytt att tala svenska. Jag vet inte mycket svenska och talar inte så bra, men jag tror att svenska intressant är. :) Jag heter Alex och jag är 15. Jag vet inte hur man säger "If I say something wrong, can you correct it?". ^_^; Men kan du tack beser det för mig? Tack så mycket! Jag vet verkligen inte mycket...förlåt... Tack igen![/quote] Reply in English: No need to say "sorry" ! We all begin from zero in a new language. You speak better Swedish than I speak Thai! The phrase you asked for will be "Om jag säger någonting fel, kan du rätta det?" Same reply in Swedish: Du behöver inte be om ursäkt! Vi börjar alla från noll när vi lär oss ett nytt språk. Du talar bättre svenska än jag talar thai! Frasen du frågade om blir "Om jag säger någonting fel, kan du rätta det?" Since it seems you would like to be corrected, I take the liberty to adjust your message (and, please, do also correct my English when needed!) One difficulty is that "know" in English has no one-to-one translation - it could be "kunna", "veta" or "känna", but if you translate from Swedish "kunna" is not always "know", and "känna" would mostly be translated as "feel". "Kunna" is something in the likes of "having ability in/to", "having knowledge", "veta" is something in the likes of "having awareness of". I use ... where your Swedish is impeccable. Hej allihop! Jag är nybörjare i svenska. Jag kan inte mycket svenska och talar inte så bra, men jag tror att svenska är intressant. ... Skulle du kunna hjälpa mig (med detta)? Jag kan verkligen inte mycket.. As you see I rephrased your question completely. I think, with "beser" you might be looking for "bistå" (=help), which is rather formal and heavy language. Maybe even the really old "bestå mig" (= give me), which I haven't heard anyone say in daily speech, unless for fun. If I don't rephrase your question it would be "Skulle du kunna bistå mig med detta?" (Heavy language, sounds a little corny) "Skulle du kunna bestå mig med detta?" (Like someone pretending to be from the 19th century, don't use, sounds awfully corny)
	kalrarii	Sunday 08th of January 2006 06:42:03 PM
	- Hejsan! Jag undrar bara.... försöker du att kunna Finlands svenska eller Sveriges svenska? Om du vill lärä sig Finlands svenska så kan jag hjälpa dig med det. (: Hallo! I was just wondering.... are you trying to learn Finland's Swedish or Sweden's Swedish? If you want to learn Finland's Swedish then I can help you with it. (:
	Laniths_Advocate	Monday 09th of January 2006 07:06:27 AM
	- Jag lär mig Sveriges svenska, men tack, i alla fall. :) Jolin: Tack så mycket! :D Jag kan inte erinra mig vad "beser" var...Jag skrev det sen igår natt. ^^; In English (well, this is what I was attempting to have it mean): I'm learning Sweden's swedish, but thanks, anyway. :) Jolin: Thanks a lot! :D I can't remember what "beser" was...I wrote it late last night. ^^; I hope "erinra sig" was the right verb to use. I was going off intuition, since the German 'to remember' is also reflexive and is "sich erinnern." I also hope I put the "inte" in the right place...in German, when you have "to be able to," the other verb always goes at the end of the sentence/clause, so I get confused with things like that in Swedish. ^^; (German isn't my native language, but it's the only one outside of English that I've really been learning long enough to get into the tiny, gritty, grammatical details.) I didn't know that "kunna" could also be used for knowledge. :) That was very helpful, thank you. It didn't come up in any of my online dictionaries...I believe I know what you meant with the differences between it and the other two. ^^ I hope no one minds that I'm using this topic mostly to practice my swedish...I was worried about doing it in Det svenska rummet since most of the Swedish there is far beyond where I am, and it looked like a topic for fluent speakers. ^^; Jag har också en fråga på (is that right? I've seen för, om, and på used for "about") "det/den." Jag vet inte varför "det" är i "det svenska rummet." "-Et" är redan där... I also have a question about "det/den." I don't know why "det" is in "the swedish room." "-Et" is already there... I believe I saw somewhere that you use "det/den" when you have an adjective followed by a definite noun, but I'm not completely sure. Also, I'm not quite sure which to use when referencing something "genderless" (such as something someone just said, or a verb). I think "det" is mostly used, but again I'm not entirely sure. Any additional information would be appreciated. :) Tack!
	kalrarii	Monday 09th of January 2006 08:22:49 AM
	- Den/det are only used for nouns. Every object (ex. apple, orange, table, person, people) is either den/det. Den is more common, though, so if you're not sure use den. (: With verbs the placing is sort of weird: 'The cat will run.' = 'Katten ska springa.' 'The cat runs.' = 'Katten springer.' 'The cat is running.' = 'Katten springer.' 'The cat ran.' = 'Katten sprang.' 'The cat that was running.' = 'Katten som sprang.' And so forth. It's just weird. I recommend getting a Swedish grammar book. (: I had one myself when I was learning, and it did help clear some stuff up. The thing with having 'det' in 'Det Svenska Rummet' is one of the grammar things. It goes for both den/det (and they mean the same thing, but it's like a gender thing - you say an and a, just like you say den for certain nouns and det for certain nouns). 'Den Svenska Klassen' for instance. Sorry I couldn't really explain that. >.< You'll get the hang of it though, don't worry.
	Jolin	Monday 09th of January 2006 07:06:38 PM
	- Now I think you have come across real difficulties :-) It is another case where there is not a one-to-one coupling. The room could be called either "Svenska rummet" = "Swedish room" or "Det svenska rummet" = "The Swedish room". It could also be "Svenskt rum" = "Swedish room", but it does not sound good, as it is not a separate concept, it is a room among other rooms. You can find this construct for example in organization names like "Svenskt Flyg" (Swedish Aviation), where it is more suitable. The "-et" in itself does not replace "the" in this case. Often, you need the "det", but not always. "Det" could also be used to point out one from others. Rummet var tomt = The room was empty Det rummet var tomt = That room was empty Det där rummet var tomt = That room was empty (when pointing to it) Det här rummet var tomt = This room was empty The same goes for "den" Lådan var tom = The box was empty Den lådan var tom = That box was empty Den där lådan var tom = That box was empty (when pointing to it) Den här lådan var tom = This box was empty Genderless would be "det" as you say. Jag visste inte det = I didn't know that. Det är en annan sak = That's another thing (note that it is "en sak", still "det är", and the phrase is abstract and could be replaced by "That's another story" or the likes of it. I am not good at the grammar mumbo-jumbo (especially not in English), so unfortunately I could not give you any good rules.
	Rikard	Monday 09th of January 2006 07:09:26 PM
	- "erinra" is correct swedish but it's not really used that much. In daily speak you say "komma ihåg" instead. Regarding the "double definitive" in "[u]Det[/u] svenska rumm[u]et[/u]". This is used quite frequently. Often when trying to emphasize "The" (or this, etc.). I think there's a rule for this but i can't remember which, hehe. My instinct tells me this is more usual when there's an adjective for the noun, in this case "svenska"
	quietspeaker	Monday 09th of January 2006 08:06:57 PM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Laniths Advocate[/i] Jag har också en fråga på (is that right? I've seen för, om, and på used for "about") "det/den." Jag vet inte varför "det" är i "det svenska rummet." "-Et" är redan där... I also have a question about "det/den." I don't know why "det" is in "the swedish room." "-Et" is already there... I believe I saw somewhere that you use "det/den" when you have an adjective followed by a definite noun, but I'm not completely sure. Also, I'm not quite sure which to use when referencing something "genderless" (such as something someone just said, or a verb). I think "det" is mostly used, but again I'm not entirely sure. Any additional information would be appreciated. :) Tack![/quote] I've learned my Swedish by studying it as a foreign language, which is why I hope I can explain some stuff in an "outsider" way: [u]Pronouns den & det[/u] Like Kala and Jolin said, "den" is used for "en words" and "det" for "ett words". (People here seem to talk about common nouns and neuter nouns, but that sounds a bit more scientific than my school books :D) "Det" is also used for things that are not singular words, such as someone's opinion or the fact that something happens. (... And to go deeper, there's "Det äts mycket hamburgare i Amerika." Keep learning...) [u]Definite Articles den & det:[/u] (Wow, that "Svenskt flyg" thing is new to me! Thanks! (Now that I think of it, Svensk Kassaservice did sound weird...)) 1) when a noun described by an adjective is definite, you use both "det" ("den") and "-et" ("-en"), and the definite form of the adjective: det vackra huset 2) when a definite group "adjective+noun" is very common (or a name), it's sometimes allowed (or even obligatory) to drop the "det" ("den") ---> svenska språket, Atlantiska oceanen 3) when the relative pronoun "som" (meaning "that") comes next, you drop the "-et" (-"en"): det vackra hus (som) jag äger... (but when it means "which", you don't: "Atlantiska oceanen, som är ganska stor, ...") Looks like I forgot the plurals. Well, it's the same thing with them... :)
	Rikard	Monday 09th of January 2006 10:09:17 PM
	- EDIT: nothing......
	Jolin	Tuesday 10th of January 2006 04:11:36 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by quietspeaker[/i] 3) when the relative pronoun "som" (meaning "that") comes next, you drop the "-et" (-"en"): det vackra hus (som) jag äger... (but when it means "which", you don't: "Atlantiska oceanen, som är ganska stor, ...") [/quote] Now, you should really teach Swedish! As a matter of fact, you frequently hear the likes of "det vackra hus[b]et[/b] som jag äger" - and if you are a native Swedish student writing it, your harsh native language teacher will get his red pen there in no time. Maybe I should start a thread with colloquial Swedish to teach all the bad language constructs you hear every day, which of course are banned from the grammatically correct study books. Hehe... "Han tillhör en av de främsta inom sitt område" "Han hade kunnat gått" etc.
	Laniths_Advocate	Tuesday 10th of January 2006 08:25:13 AM
	- Oooh, jag tycker att jag förstår på den/det nu. Tack! Ni hjälper mig så mycket! (Oooh, I think I understand about den/det now. Thanks! You (all) are helping me so much!) So det/den are demonstrative pronounce, but not quite as uncommonly used as in English, if you know what I mean (since when referring to a specific room from previously in the conversation, in english we just say "the room"...kk, I think I got it). Och Jolin, du hjälper mig också verkligen. :) (And Jolin, you really help me too. I'm not sure about the placement of "verkligen" in that sentence...) I hate to ask yet another question...but how do you form passive? ^^; I've looked it up but usually I end up confusing myself... I think I've got the basic gist of it but I'll try an example: Han slogs. Attempted meaning (the site where I looked it up just said you add 's' to the past form...): He was hit. How would I say, "He was hit by her"? I've seen that it's more common just to use active construction, but just in case I ever need to use passive for something...^^; I've also seen 'bli' be used...Han blev slog? Tack igen! :)
	Rikard	Wednesday 11th of January 2006 01:28:43 AM
	- Hope you don't mind if i take the liberty to answer. It's true that in many cases you add an "s" to make it passive. In this case you can't though cause "han slogs" mean "he was fighting" (present "han slåss") You're actually almost giving the correct version which is "han blev slagen" The verb in this case i believe always ends with either -en or -ad. For example: Han blev slagen (as above) Han blev rakad (he was shaved) I think you always can use "bli" to make a sentence passive but it's not always used. For example you could as easily say han rakades (av barberaren) - He was shaved (by the barber) As in english you often have somone who does something to you so the passive form i almost always followed by a "av någon"(by someone). I don't have any grammar book nearby which probobly could have made much more sense out of my mumbojumbo. Don't hesitate to ask again if you need help. And perhaps someone else can help here as well?
	quietspeaker	Wednesday 11th of January 2006 02:43:31 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Jolin[/i] Now, you should really teach Swedish! As a matter of fact, you frequently hear the likes of "det vackra huset som jag äger" - and if you are a native Swedish student writing it, your harsh native language teacher will get his red pen there in no time.[/quote] Tack ska du ha! :) (In the summer 2004, I took an extra (Finland-)Swedish course and the teacher turned out to be old-fashioned enough to insist on spelling "skall" always with the two Ls! [i]Those where the days[/i]... ♪ Sommartider hej hej sommertider...) [quote][i]Originally posted by Rikard[/i]You're actually almost giving the correct version which is "han blev slagen" The verb in this case i believe always ends with either -en or -ad.[/quote] You're dealing with past participles! Here I go again with my junior high terminology: It's "-ad; -at; -ade" with the verbs whose supine (the form that is used in perfect and pluperfect: they have driven) ends with "-at". ("-ar verbs") "-t; -t; -ta" with the ones whose supine ends with "-t" (normal "-ker -per -ter -ser -xer verbs") "-d; -t; -da" with the ones whose supine ends with "-d" ( normal "-[voiced consonant here]er verbs" + normal verbs with "-ra" in infinitive and a one-syllable present tense) "-dd; -tt; -dda" with the normal one-syllable ones. "-en; -et, -na" with most of the "irregular" verbs (verbs that change vowels and have one-syllable imperfects... supine ends with "-it"). (Errors are possible, because I try to remember this one by heart: "Men retoriken stelnade i munnen och siste talarn slutade sitt tal och såg sig [b]frusen[/b] kring i Mimas sal där livets resa nu var längre [b]hunnen[/b] än någonting som drömt[b]s[/b] i Tajos dal" (wherever that is... the dale, I mean.) (but there's a nice "s" passive for you. although "hade drömts" would have been even clearer. i guess a poet must think of the rhythm, too...) [quote]I think you always can use "bli" to make a sentence passive but it's not always used.[/quote] Sometimes, at least when you're talking about long-lasting circumstances, you should use "vara" ('to be') : [i]vara hatad[/i] (to be hated = to [b]remain[/b] hated); [i]bli rånad[/i] (to be robbed = to [b]get[/b] robbed) [quote]As in english you often have somone who does something to you so the passive form i almost always followed by a "av någon"(by someone).[/quote] [url="http://www.phrasebase.com/forum/read.php?TID=12311"]By a storm wind[/url], for example :D And Lanith(')s Advocate, your Swedish is more understandable than you think! I see what you mean even when I haven't read it in English yet! :) -EDITED A MILLION TIMES-
	Rikard	Wednesday 11th of January 2006 03:21:26 AM
	- hmm yes. i got stuck in the past tense fomr some reason. Perhaps cause somone wrote "blev slogs" hehe. And there you have the other endings. I mentally tried a couple of words but only came up with the -en and -ad endings hehe. Perhaps i should have tried som more :). Good job!
	Jolin	Wednesday 11th of January 2006 04:30:45 AM
	- I really more and more understand how lucky I am to have Swedish native, and not having to learn it as a foreigner :-) I thought of another horrid example of passive form, where the subject changes: Han retades = He was teasing ( someone ) Han retades av de andra = He was teased by the others Actually, the meaning must come from the context. Compare: Han retades = He was teasing Hans sinnen retades = His senses were alerted (what's the proper English word here, anyway?) Han slogs = He was fighting Han slogs av en tanke = A thought struck him Ängen slogs = The field was mowed Edit: A wordbook taught me that "mow" is not only used for lawns, so I could replace the ###. And thanks Rikard for the scythe! (Where ### is, there should be the word describing when you cut the grass in a field with the tool the grim reaper carries, I don't know the word for that one either) I see now I should remove a star from my pretended English knowledge in my profile :-)
	Rikard	Wednesday 11th of January 2006 04:48:54 AM
	- The Grim reaper carries with him a scythe (på svenska: en lie) :)
	Laniths_Advocate	Sunday 15th of January 2006 12:19:55 PM
	Even MORE questions!! - Oh, wow. I better start memorizing just past tense and present perfect then before I think about passive. ^_^;; Jag hoppas att jag ska tala som infödd slutligen. Så mycket att kunna! Jag har storfamilj i Sverige. Jag vill resa (till?) där. (I looked high and low for "a native" and infödd is what I found...I hope it's right...I hope that whole thing is right. ^^; ) Attempted meaning: I hope that I'll speak like a native eventually. So much to know(/learn?)! I have extended family in Sweden. I want to travel (to?) there. :) Hmm...Jag har en annan fråga på "också". Specifically, about its word order. In German, you would say, "I speak also Swedish," to sound most correct (at least this is what I've seen), or, "Ich spreche auch Schwedisch." Is it like this in Swedish too? "Jag talar också svenska." Or would "också" go after "svenska"? The same goes for "inte"...I know that in subordinate clauses, the "inte" goes in between the subject and the verb (does it do that for också too?), because I saw that in a word order topic. Are there any other special things like that? Tack igen och igen. ^_^;
	Rikard	Sunday 15th of January 2006 07:07:20 PM
	- You did rather well. This is how i would phrase your sentence: Jag hoppas att jag kan tala som en infödd en dag. Men det är så mycket man ska kunna (veta). Jag har stor släkt i Sverige så gag vill resa dit. Note that when not talking about your closest family members; brothers, parents etc you use the swedish word "släkt" and not "familj". Also, this was nota direct translation of you sentence since that often doesn't come out right in swedish. And yeah, "infödd" eqauls native Regading "okcså" "Jag talar också svenska." "Jag talar svenska också" Both these sentences are grmatically correct. Which one you use depend on the sitation. The first one you say rather casually. Perhaps something you "just happen" to mention (hehe). The other one is a more firm statement that you indeed speak swedish.