Swedish Hard And Soft G's / K's Not As Easy As It Seems?

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Mathieu Saturday 09th of July 2005 12:27:21 AM
Hard and soft g's / k's - Ok so in this [url=http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm#pronunciation][b]pronounciation guide[/b][/url] that you'll all know by now, they say g's and k's are pronounced the soft way (ie. j'ish and sh'ish) before the ö, and hard before the o.
But, I noticed these two on Swedish radio (I had the text along with it):

Kön (as in: definite version of kö) with a HARD k
Gotaland with a SOFT g

How's that possible? How about: köpa, köra, how are they pronounced? My guess would be the first hard, the latter soft, but I have really no idea. Maybe anyone has any other examples as well?

bluehipopotamo Saturday 09th of July 2005 12:33:30 AM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i]

Ok so in this [url=http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm#pronunciation][b]pronounciation guide[/b][/url] that you'll all know by now, they say g's and k's are pronounced the soft way (ie. j'ish and sh'ish) before the ö, and hard before the o.
But, I noticed these two on Swedish radio (I had the text along with it):

Kön (as in: definite version of kö) with a HARD k
Gotaland with a SOFT g

How's that possible? How about: köpa, köra, how are they pronounced? My guess would be the first hard, the latter soft, but I have really no idea. Maybe anyone has any other examples as well?[/quote]
i think köpa and köra are both pronounced with a soft k. that's how i've always pronounced them, ch-öra, ch-öpa...

Rikard Sunday 10th of July 2005 08:40:45 PM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i]

Ok so in this [url=http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm#pronunciation][b]pronounciation guide[/b][/url] that you'll all know by now, they say g's and k's are pronounced the soft way (ie. j'ish and sh'ish) before the ö, and hard before the o.
But, I noticed these two on Swedish radio (I had the text along with it):

Kön (as in: definite version of kö) with a HARD k
Gotaland with a SOFT g

How's that possible? How about: köpa, köra, how are they pronounced? My guess would be the first hard, the latter soft, but I have really no idea. Maybe anyone has any other examples as well?[/quote]

It's actually spelled Götaland (sweden is divided into thre major regions; Norrland, Svealand and Götaland in that successive order from the north. So Götaland is the southernmost part of sweden)
And since it's a Ö it's a soft wovel so it's correct.

Regarding kön. Just looking at the spelling it could be two things.

1) The definitive of queue. Kö - n
2) The definitive of gender. Kön -

The latter one is pronounced with the [i]sch[/i]-sound while the former does not follow these rules but are pronounced with a hard K.

So there are exceptions to all rules :)

Mathieu Sunday 10th of July 2005 09:19:30 PM
- Ah, all clear now, thanks guys :)

Rikard Monday 11th of July 2005 08:41:35 AM
- You're welcome.

Madrynea Wednesday 13th of July 2005 06:31:33 AM
- The rule about the soft sounds is correct, but as in all languages, there are exceptions, some of which I'm still struggling with. :) "kö" as in "queue" is one of those. Good look with your studies!

Mathieu Saturday 16th of July 2005 08:11:36 PM
- Ha, if you thought you were rid of me yet, what about this one :)

säga, pronounced säja.

Is that another exception, or is there are rule to this (maybe stress related..), if it's an exception, is there a list of those that I could learn perhaps? Thanks :)

Jadokesa Saturday 16th of July 2005 10:43:23 PM
- I think that it isn't governed by a rule, but there has simply been a sound change (there could be others affected by the same sound change). You can pronounce [i]säga[/i] and its other forms with g instead of j - it would only seem old-fashioned, and you would quickly adapt to j instead because it is easier to say. Some spell it with j, but most people look down on them.

säga säg! säger sa(de) sagt [i](the first three pronounced with j)[/i]

Mathieu Sunday 17th of July 2005 12:39:39 AM
- Clear, I can remember that, thx for this reply as well :)

Madrynea Sunday 17th of July 2005 03:31:04 AM
- Don't know if this helps, but when I studied English linguistics, we learnt that it's usually the *common* words (such as to be, to say, to do, to see, etc.), words you use all the time, that are irregular.

I think this might apply to Swedish as well. Example: the word "säga" is a very common one, that is why the irregular pronunciation "j" still applies. If it had been an uncommon word such as "väga" (weigh), people would use it so rarely that eventually the pronunciation would get lost and so people would start pronouncing it the way it's written ("g").

I can't really make a rule of this, but if you find an uncommon word and wonder about the pronunciation, it's *probably* the way it should be, while the more common words can be trickier. :)

Mathieu Sunday 17th of July 2005 03:36:57 AM
- Yes, that figures.. I always feel kind of bad when people ask me really basic Dutch verbs and try to conjugate them and they always turn out to be irregular, just because they're so basic..
Thanks, I'll keep listening to Swedish radio, maybe I'll find any other peculiarities to post here :)

Rikard Sunday 17th of July 2005 10:12:09 PM
- You are probobly right M. But sometimes a word doesn't change cause the change would interfere with another word.

As for your example "Väga - to weigh". If pronounced with a j-sound it would sound as the word "väja - to get out of somethings way" (sorry but i don't know if there's a direct translation for that word hehe. The word "dodge" comes to my mind but that word has another meaning as well.)

Mathieu Monday 18th of July 2005 01:35:23 AM
- Ok :)

And the word you were looking for is "evade" :)

Rikard Monday 18th of July 2005 02:41:52 AM
- yes of course. stupid me :D

D Saturday 06th of August 2005 09:44:07 PM
- [quote][i]Originally posted by Hoogard[/i]
1) The definitive of queue. Kö - n
2) The definitive of gender. Kön -

The latter one is pronounced with the [i]sch[/i]-sound ...[/quote]
I beg to differ slightly. I’d describe the sound as the [i]sj[/i]-sound, equal to English [i]sh[/i]. Learners may interpret “your” [i]sch[/I]-sound as that of ‘schema’, ‘scharlakansfeber’, ‘schäslong’, etc., while we’re in this case seeking the [i]sj[/i]-sound of ‘[b]kinkig[/b]’, ‘[b]kär[/b]’, ‘[b]kirurg[/b]’ (which is sometimes rendered [i]tj[/I]; ‘[b]tjatig[/b]’, ‘[b]tjalla[/b]’, ‘[b]tjej[/b]’, etc.

D

Rikard Saturday 06th of August 2005 10:12:35 PM
- Yes. absolutely right. I guess i was thinking in german :P

Phrasebase Archive
	Mathieu	Saturday 09th of July 2005 12:27:21 AM
	Hard and soft g's / k's - Ok so in this [url=http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm#pronunciation][b]pronounciation guide[/b][/url] that you'll all know by now, they say g's and k's are pronounced the soft way (ie. j'ish and sh'ish) before the ö, and hard before the o. But, I noticed these two on Swedish radio (I had the text along with it): Kön (as in: definite version of kö) with a HARD k Gotaland with a SOFT g How's that possible? How about: köpa, köra, how are they pronounced? My guess would be the first hard, the latter soft, but I have really no idea. Maybe anyone has any other examples as well?
	bluehipopotamo	Saturday 09th of July 2005 12:33:30 AM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i] Ok so in this [url=http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm#pronunciation][b]pronounciation guide[/b][/url] that you'll all know by now, they say g's and k's are pronounced the soft way (ie. j'ish and sh'ish) before the ö, and hard before the o. But, I noticed these two on Swedish radio (I had the text along with it): Kön (as in: definite version of kö) with a HARD k Gotaland with a SOFT g How's that possible? How about: köpa, köra, how are they pronounced? My guess would be the first hard, the latter soft, but I have really no idea. Maybe anyone has any other examples as well?[/quote] i think köpa and köra are both pronounced with a soft k. that's how i've always pronounced them, ch-öra, ch-öpa...
	Rikard	Sunday 10th of July 2005 08:40:45 PM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Teup[/i] Ok so in this [url=http://web.hhs.se/isa/swedish/chap9.htm#pronunciation][b]pronounciation guide[/b][/url] that you'll all know by now, they say g's and k's are pronounced the soft way (ie. j'ish and sh'ish) before the ö, and hard before the o. But, I noticed these two on Swedish radio (I had the text along with it): Kön (as in: definite version of kö) with a HARD k Gotaland with a SOFT g How's that possible? How about: köpa, köra, how are they pronounced? My guess would be the first hard, the latter soft, but I have really no idea. Maybe anyone has any other examples as well?[/quote] It's actually spelled Götaland (sweden is divided into thre major regions; Norrland, Svealand and Götaland in that successive order from the north. So Götaland is the southernmost part of sweden) And since it's a Ö it's a soft wovel so it's correct. Regarding kön. Just looking at the spelling it could be two things. 1) The definitive of queue. Kö - n 2) The definitive of gender. Kön - The latter one is pronounced with the [i]sch[/i]-sound while the former does not follow these rules but are pronounced with a hard K. So there are exceptions to all rules :)
	Mathieu	Sunday 10th of July 2005 09:19:30 PM
	- Ah, all clear now, thanks guys :)
	Rikard	Monday 11th of July 2005 08:41:35 AM
	- You're welcome.
	Madrynea	Wednesday 13th of July 2005 06:31:33 AM
	- The rule about the soft sounds is correct, but as in all languages, there are exceptions, some of which I'm still struggling with. :) "kö" as in "queue" is one of those. Good look with your studies!
	Mathieu	Saturday 16th of July 2005 08:11:36 PM
	- Ha, if you thought you were rid of me yet, what about this one :) säga, pronounced säja. Is that another exception, or is there are rule to this (maybe stress related..), if it's an exception, is there a list of those that I could learn perhaps? Thanks :)
	Jadokesa	Saturday 16th of July 2005 10:43:23 PM
	- I think that it isn't governed by a rule, but there has simply been a sound change (there could be others affected by the same sound change). You can pronounce [i]säga[/i] and its other forms with g instead of j - it would only seem old-fashioned, and you would quickly adapt to j instead because it is easier to say. Some spell it with j, but most people look down on them. säga säg! säger sa(de) sagt [i](the first three pronounced with j)[/i]
	Mathieu	Sunday 17th of July 2005 12:39:39 AM
	- Clear, I can remember that, thx for this reply as well :)
	Madrynea	Sunday 17th of July 2005 03:31:04 AM
	- Don't know if this helps, but when I studied English linguistics, we learnt that it's usually the common words (such as to be, to say, to do, to see, etc.), words you use all the time, that are irregular. I think this might apply to Swedish as well. Example: the word "säga" is a very common one, that is why the irregular pronunciation "j" still applies. If it had been an uncommon word such as "väga" (weigh), people would use it so rarely that eventually the pronunciation would get lost and so people would start pronouncing it the way it's written ("g"). I can't really make a rule of this, but if you find an uncommon word and wonder about the pronunciation, it's probably the way it should be, while the more common words can be trickier. :)
	Mathieu	Sunday 17th of July 2005 03:36:57 AM
	- Yes, that figures.. I always feel kind of bad when people ask me really basic Dutch verbs and try to conjugate them and they always turn out to be irregular, just because they're so basic.. Thanks, I'll keep listening to Swedish radio, maybe I'll find any other peculiarities to post here :)
	Rikard	Sunday 17th of July 2005 10:12:09 PM
	- You are probobly right M. But sometimes a word doesn't change cause the change would interfere with another word. As for your example "Väga - to weigh". If pronounced with a j-sound it would sound as the word "väja - to get out of somethings way" (sorry but i don't know if there's a direct translation for that word hehe. The word "dodge" comes to my mind but that word has another meaning as well.)
	Mathieu	Monday 18th of July 2005 01:35:23 AM
	- Ok :) And the word you were looking for is "evade" :)
	Rikard	Monday 18th of July 2005 02:41:52 AM
	- yes of course. stupid me :D
	D	Saturday 06th of August 2005 09:44:07 PM
	- [quote][i]Originally posted by Hoogard[/i] 1) The definitive of queue. Kö - n 2) The definitive of gender. Kön - The latter one is pronounced with the [i]sch[/i]-sound ...[/quote] I beg to differ slightly. I’d describe the sound as the [i]sj[/i]-sound, equal to English [i]sh[/i]. Learners may interpret “your” [i]sch[/I]-sound as that of ‘schema’, ‘scharlakansfeber’, ‘schäslong’, etc., while we’re in this case seeking the [i]sj[/i]-sound of ‘[b]kinkig[/b]’, ‘[b]kär[/b]’, ‘[b]kirurg[/b]’ (which is sometimes rendered [i]tj[/I]; ‘[b]tjatig[/b]’, ‘[b]tjalla[/b]’, ‘[b]tjej[/b]’, etc. D
	Rikard	Saturday 06th of August 2005 10:12:35 PM
	- Yes. absolutely right. I guess i was thinking in german :P