Turkish Some Weird Relativization Stuff In Case Anyone Understands :d

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Mathieu Thursday 26th of October 2006 02:10:34 AM
Some weird relativization stuff - (First of all, I\'m sorry, I don\'t have Turkish keyboard layout so I\'ll have to do some violence to the Turkish writing :()

Ok, for some subject about Turkish I have to deal with relativization. At this point I have to explain why the one thing is grammatical and the other isn\'t. In the 1st example I substract a word out of the [b]object[/b] of a sentence, in the second one I substract this same word out of the same clause but now with that clause as the [b]subject[/b] of the whole thing. Take a look (the place where \"kitap\" is moved out of is indicated by \"(GAP)\"):

[Cem -in [ [b](GAP)[/b] oku -ma] -yi iste -dig -i] [b]kitap[/b]
\"The book that Cem wants to read\"

[[[[b](GAP)[/b] oku -ma -nin] Cem -i yor -dug -u] söyle -n -en] [b]kitap[/b] --> ungrammatical
\"The book that it was said that reading made Cem tired\"

This is the data I have been provided with on my sheet (I have no knowledge of Turkish at all) Now, thanks for reading this far, here comes my question! Apart from that in the one example \"book\" comes out of an object and in the other it comes out of a subject, there\'s also an extra, unwanted difference, the 2nd example has a whole \"it was said ...\" phrase which it is embedded in. So I can\'t compare fairly. Soo... can someone tell me what it would be without that, so what only \"reading the book made Cem tired\" would be?

Something like this I guess, but then with a proper suffixing:

[Kitab -i oku -ma -nin] Cem -i yor -SUFFIX ?

And then, would it now be possible to substract \"kitap\" out of the subject, like:

[[[b](GAP)[/b] -i oku -ma -nin] Cem -i yor -dug -u] [b]kitap[/b]

Or would that still not be possible?

I hope I make sense, and if so then I hope there\'s someone that also understands what I mean :p

zappie Thursday 26th of October 2006 03:40:24 AM
- Teup good to see you on the Turkish Board!

For such a complicated question you must have progressed in Turkish very fast. Your ungrammatical sentence is not very bad but it is impractical. In colloqual Turkish I would say \" Cem bu kitabı okumaktan yorulmuş \" I used inferential past. For your last suggestion I would say:

Cem\'in okumaktan yorulduğu kitap.
Kolay gelsin

Mathieu Thursday 26th of October 2006 05:31:56 AM
- Hehe I don\'t know any Turkish at all, I just have these data that I need to account for :) Again, thanks for the chat we just had, it\'s solved now :D

Voyager Thursday 26th of October 2006 06:04:00 AM
- It\'s hard for me to explain in English but I\'ll give it a try:)

\"Cem\'in okumayi istedigi kitap\" and \"Okumanin Cem\'i yordugu soylenen kitap\" are both adjective phrases. When you see any phrases in Turkish you have to ask the proper question to the word that\'s been pointed or described. In both phrases \"kitap\" is been described.

When you ask a question like \"Hangi kitap (Which book)?\" then the whole phrase will answer the question: Cem\'in okumayi istedigi (which Cem wants to read), Okumanin Cem\'i yordugu soylenen (which that it\'s said that makes Cem tired). So both are actually gramatical..

Now let\'s make one of these phrases a sentence. In Turkish, a sentence must have a predicate verb. The you may ask questions to that verb and find out what other words and phrases standing for.

Cem o kitabi okumayi istiyor (Cem wants to read that book).--->
istiyor (wants): predicate (verb)
\"Who\" wants to read that book? > Cem: subject
\"What\" Cem wants? > o kitabi okumayi (to read that book): object

So now we came out with subject, object and a verb. There\'re no objects or subjects in phrases.

Hope I got your question right. Anyway, I believe this would help a little...

Osman Friday 27th of October 2006 12:48:17 AM
- Mathieu O_O

Zappie abi, great that you are here! it took my some long time to understand what he says :)

Mathieu, sorry for being late! :(

school stuff!! grrr...

:p

stormgoblin Monday 30th of October 2006 05:39:10 AM
- hello guys. maybe it might help to give a grammatical context. you apparently figured this out, so whatever but maybe this helps, too.
okuma is a verbal noun, it is not okumak, which means \"to read,\" but it means a \"reading\" --in the dictionary the example is okuma kitabi--that is, a compound noun with the -i suffix, meaning a \"book reading\"
ok so any time you find this suffix -i or -u with these complimentary nouns or participles (yordug-u) it suggests that they all modify and compliment one another. there is no actual normal verb in the first phrase. it is literally like cem\'s desired book reading --istiyordugu is moved to the back like a modifying adjective. the actual verb form for \"he wanted\" is istidi, i think, or istedi, i am confused about when you can take off these vowels with stem addition. but, as you can see, its different. this is actually a continous verb, with the -yor suffix, so if you wanted to do a continous past verb, i believe you can say istiyordu--but you see the difference, the participle will have a -duk suffix, which is the same as the 1st person plural. but you know the difference because of the additional suffix for third person, and its position in a sentence.... and then to say \"his desired....\" you have to add a third person suffix, so k becomes the scoopy g (me have no turkce keys either) and you add the vowel -u.
so, in contrast to the second phrase, soylenen should be the present aorist participle. otherwise, it would resemble yorduk with soyledik. that means it is said at any time which occurs in the present, as opposed to someone who is saying something at the specific moment, if that makes sense. this is my understanding of it. so literally in the second, you should have:
of the book reading (genitive case) tired cem (objective) it is said. if that makes sense?
hope that was helpful, but if i\'m mistaken, its cool, and its a good exercise in my skills too, so i don\'t mind corrections, of course. i couldn\'t know how to construct this type of sentence myself, but i try to analyze....
--also, the -mus suffix like zappie mentioned is the other participle form, but it is only used when the person is the subject, which is why you see -dik most of the time. but this is analogous to the inferential tense, and it makes sense how logically it is the same. its like a statement suffix or something, so it can occupy a participial construct, for whatever reason. cool, thanks for the chance to speak.
blah
--me

Phrasebase Archive
	Mathieu	Thursday 26th of October 2006 02:10:34 AM
	Some weird relativization stuff - (First of all, I\'m sorry, I don\'t have Turkish keyboard layout so I\'ll have to do some violence to the Turkish writing :() Ok, for some subject about Turkish I have to deal with relativization. At this point I have to explain why the one thing is grammatical and the other isn\'t. In the 1st example I substract a word out of the [b]object[/b] of a sentence, in the second one I substract this same word out of the same clause but now with that clause as the [b]subject[/b] of the whole thing. Take a look (the place where \"kitap\" is moved out of is indicated by \"(GAP)\"): [Cem -in [ [b](GAP)[/b] oku -ma] -yi iste -dig -i] [b]kitap[/b] \"The book that Cem wants to read\" [[[[b](GAP)[/b] oku -ma -nin] Cem -i yor -dug -u] söyle -n -en] [b]kitap[/b] --> ungrammatical \"The book that it was said that reading made Cem tired\" This is the data I have been provided with on my sheet (I have no knowledge of Turkish at all) Now, thanks for reading this far, here comes my question! Apart from that in the one example \"book\" comes out of an object and in the other it comes out of a subject, there\'s also an extra, unwanted difference, the 2nd example has a whole \"it was said ...\" phrase which it is embedded in. So I can\'t compare fairly. Soo... can someone tell me what it would be without that, so what only \"reading the book made Cem tired\" would be? Something like this I guess, but then with a proper suffixing: [Kitab -i oku -ma -nin] Cem -i yor -SUFFIX ? And then, would it now be possible to substract \"kitap\" out of the subject, like: [[[b](GAP)[/b] -i oku -ma -nin] Cem -i yor -dug -u] [b]kitap[/b] Or would that still not be possible? I hope I make sense, and if so then I hope there\'s someone that also understands what I mean :p
	zappie	Thursday 26th of October 2006 03:40:24 AM
	- Teup good to see you on the Turkish Board! For such a complicated question you must have progressed in Turkish very fast. Your ungrammatical sentence is not very bad but it is impractical. In colloqual Turkish I would say \" Cem bu kitabı okumaktan yorulmuş \" I used inferential past. For your last suggestion I would say: Cem\'in okumaktan yorulduğu kitap. Kolay gelsin
	Mathieu	Thursday 26th of October 2006 05:31:56 AM
	- Hehe I don\'t know any Turkish at all, I just have these data that I need to account for :) Again, thanks for the chat we just had, it\'s solved now :D
	Voyager	Thursday 26th of October 2006 06:04:00 AM
	- It\'s hard for me to explain in English but I\'ll give it a try:) \"Cem\'in okumayi istedigi kitap\" and \"Okumanin Cem\'i yordugu soylenen kitap\" are both adjective phrases. When you see any phrases in Turkish you have to ask the proper question to the word that\'s been pointed or described. In both phrases \"kitap\" is been described. When you ask a question like \"Hangi kitap (Which book)?\" then the whole phrase will answer the question: Cem\'in okumayi istedigi (which Cem wants to read), Okumanin Cem\'i yordugu soylenen (which that it\'s said that makes Cem tired). So both are actually gramatical.. Now let\'s make one of these phrases a sentence. In Turkish, a sentence must have a predicate verb. The you may ask questions to that verb and find out what other words and phrases standing for. Cem o kitabi okumayi istiyor (Cem wants to read that book).---> istiyor (wants): predicate (verb) \"Who\" wants to read that book? > Cem: subject \"What\" Cem wants? > o kitabi okumayi (to read that book): object So now we came out with subject, object and a verb. There\'re no objects or subjects in phrases. Hope I got your question right. Anyway, I believe this would help a little...
	Osman	Friday 27th of October 2006 12:48:17 AM
	- Mathieu O_O Zappie abi, great that you are here! it took my some long time to understand what he says :) Mathieu, sorry for being late! :( school stuff!! grrr... :p
	stormgoblin	Monday 30th of October 2006 05:39:10 AM
	- hello guys. maybe it might help to give a grammatical context. you apparently figured this out, so whatever but maybe this helps, too. okuma is a verbal noun, it is not okumak, which means \"to read,\" but it means a \"reading\" --in the dictionary the example is okuma kitabi--that is, a compound noun with the -i suffix, meaning a \"book reading\" ok so any time you find this suffix -i or -u with these complimentary nouns or participles (yordug-u) it suggests that they all modify and compliment one another. there is no actual normal verb in the first phrase. it is literally like cem\'s desired book reading --istiyordugu is moved to the back like a modifying adjective. the actual verb form for \"he wanted\" is istidi, i think, or istedi, i am confused about when you can take off these vowels with stem addition. but, as you can see, its different. this is actually a continous verb, with the -yor suffix, so if you wanted to do a continous past verb, i believe you can say istiyordu--but you see the difference, the participle will have a -duk suffix, which is the same as the 1st person plural. but you know the difference because of the additional suffix for third person, and its position in a sentence.... and then to say \"his desired....\" you have to add a third person suffix, so k becomes the scoopy g (me have no turkce keys either) and you add the vowel -u. so, in contrast to the second phrase, soylenen should be the present aorist participle. otherwise, it would resemble yorduk with soyledik. that means it is said at any time which occurs in the present, as opposed to someone who is saying something at the specific moment, if that makes sense. this is my understanding of it. so literally in the second, you should have: of the book reading (genitive case) tired cem (objective) it is said. if that makes sense? hope that was helpful, but if i\'m mistaken, its cool, and its a good exercise in my skills too, so i don\'t mind corrections, of course. i couldn\'t know how to construct this type of sentence myself, but i try to analyze.... --also, the -mus suffix like zappie mentioned is the other participle form, but it is only used when the person is the subject, which is why you see -dik most of the time. but this is analogous to the inferential tense, and it makes sense how logically it is the same. its like a statement suffix or something, so it can occupy a participial construct, for whatever reason. cool, thanks for the chance to speak. blah --me